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holocaust spell rename


Guest Jerusnare

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Guest Jerusnare

In general this mod is really cool as it provides something new after a zillion playthrough's. However, I just found a spell called 'holocaust' in '/sod2bg2_iu/spl/dtkholo.spl'. The accompanying description reads:

 

Holocaust
(Evocation)

Level: 8
Range: 40 ft.
Duration: 1 turn
Casting Time: 6
Area of Effect: 15-ft. radius
Saving Throw: Special

This spell is a more powerful version of the level 5 mage spell, Cloudkill.  When cast, it creates plumes of venemous gas of such toxicity as to immediately sear the flesh of creatures it comes in contact with, entering their bloodstream.  So deadly is this poison as to instantly slay creatures of 8 or fewer Hit Dice, and creatures with 9 or 10 Hit Dice must roll a Saving Throw vs. Poison at -8 for each round they remain in the area of effect, lest they be slain instantly as well.  Those above 10th level (or 10 Hit Dice) must leave the cloud immediately or suffer 1d12 + 1 Hit Points of poison damage per level per round that they remain in the affected area, up to a maximum of 1d12 + 15 Hit Points at level 30.  While remaining in the area of effect, there is a 25% chance per round that creatures will also be systemically poisoned, suffering an additional 2 Hit Points of poison damage per second for 2 rounds, unless they make a Saving Throw vs. poison at -8.  This affliction will persist even after leaving the area of effect.

 

I find the idea of casting a spell that reminds me of the actual holocaust during which millions of innocents died due to the gas chambers rather disturbing.

 

Would you please rename the spell? Perhaps something 'Plague kill' or 'Death plague' will do?

ps. the spell is added at line 1309 in the sod2bg2_io.tp2

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The proper noun "Holocaust" coupled with a visual of a gas cloud and a description centred on "venemous gas" is less than ideal. If it were me, I'd change the name.

However, I hope that everyone who reads this thread will be aware that "holocaust" has existed as a common noun in English for centuries. I was already aware of that fact, but my (extremely hasty two-minute) internet research tells me that the etymology of holocaust can be traced from Hebrew, to Ancient Greek, to Late Latin, to Old French, to Anglo-Norman, to Middle English, to Early Modern English, to Modern English (AKA "English") - and there are probably a few steps between Hebrew and Old French that I've missed out. According to this source, holocaust existed originally as a word "for "burnt offerings," given wider figurative sense of "massacre, destruction of a large number of persons" from 1670s" (Early Modern English). The modern definition of the term is linked to its origins, in that it refers to destruction "especially by fire or heat" (hence the phrase "nuclear holocaust"), but it would not be inaccurate to use the term holocaust to describe the effects of a sufficiently catastrophic flood, for example. Interestingly, a relatively popular science fiction game with an international audience has, or had, a psychic power known by the proper noun "Holocaust" (psychic powers being spells in the sci-fi setting); this power was however fire-based. That was the state of play for the game in the late '90s when I used to play it, but I don't know if that power still exists. All of this is to say that, while I find the existence of the spell in this mod somewhat unfortunate, the author's use of English is actually fairly accurate, taking into account the sometimes hyperbolic naming of supernatural powers (Meteor Swarm, anyone?).

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I guess every nation / country has their specific historic bias against certain things and words. For US citicens, pictures of apes in clothes is a total no-go while I  just see an ape in clothes. As a German, for me the word Holocaust - especially used in this content - is a total nogo.

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To put a bit more emphasis on my opinion, let me add that the name of the spell is "a total nogo" for me as well, given what the spell is and does.

National background is certainly relevant, but I'm sure there are some amount of people even in my country who aren't aware that the word "holocaust" actually has a meaning beyond the historical events in the middle of the previous century. Although I was in full agreement with the posts above mine, I just wanted to make sure that anyone posting after me was aware of the full range of meanings of the word in question, as it might help contextualise how the situation described in the OP might have come about.

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I will take this under consideration, mostly out of respect for Jastey.

*HOWEVER* - I have strong reservations about doing so.  It's used in other games.  First one that comes to mind: Phantasy Star 4.  One of the bosses (Zio, if I remember correctly), has an attack named holocaust.   And that games is a good bit older than this one.

I could go into much greater detail about why I have such reservations, but that would take this thread into a political miasma that imo, has no place in a gaming forum. 

I'll just say this and leave it at that: I am of Polish decent from immigrants who fled a certain horrific event in europe a long time ago.

 

****Edit****

After more ponderance on this, here's what I would like to do:

@jastey - Out of my respect and gratitude for you, if you could kindly come up with a replacement name for this spell, I will implement it in the next update.

Edited by Daeros_Trollkiller
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For what is worth my opinion, I usually don't like all the situations were a word, a symbol or whatever change is requested 'cause it could be perceived as an offence (in general), and by "I don't like" I mean exactly it: it greatly conflicts me, every time.
The best way I cold explain the reasoning behind my opinion is using a Lenny Bruce's quote: "It's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness."

Anyway I TOTALLY agree that in this particular and unfortunate case it really generates bad vibes. I think that's not the name but the description associated with that name. It's not "an holocaust" (there are also comic book characters by that name and who knows how many other uses), with that description it becames very tied with "THE" holocaust. Honestly, it would make me feel bad every single time I will be going to launch the spell, breaking the immersion. 

The author's good faith is not even remotely in discussion, it's clear for me that no offence was intended. As I said in all honesty, it really feels bad, not due to political ideologies and such, I get what you mean by political miasma and I agree it's not the right place.

Edited by Frenzgyn
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10 hours ago, Daeros_Trollkiller said:

First one that comes to mind: Phantasy Star 4.  One of the bosses (Zio, if I remember correctly), has an attack named holocaust.

The fact someone did it before doesn't mean it's "ok". If world DID work like that, it would mean stealing is fine too, humiliation, because, well, people do it. And sexism. The fact some game includes sexist content (doesn't matter if aimed at women or men) is not a reason to include it in another game and/or mod.

And yeah, it happened to me too: I used a word "rape" in an item name in one of my old mods. If there would be a mod in which I want to write about it, it was all on purpose, telling a difficult story and how much damage such act can do, then sure. But including this REALLY triggering word "just because" for such an unnecessary reason (or rather without any reason) is harmful. I am grateful to one of the players who was a victim to such act contacted me and told me about how triggering it may be, because in theory I knew that, but sometimes remembering all your past content is hard. So even the mod was like... 8 years old, I came back to it and changed it in all available languages.

And yes, game forums is about politics: we are talking here about stories that make us laugh, that reflect, cry, ponder. They quite often reflect social norms, law, different kinds of fear. And sometimes they show alternatives. We write romances and friendships that portray these things. That's mostly why I switched more diverese stories. We create heroes and heroines and we are not the first one to do this so we are in position to support and/or change how things are written.

I think it's quite clear what my opinion is, but: yeah, when I played the mod I really enjoyed the content, but when I found this spell I had a huge "WTF" and it left quite weirt after-taste. And seeing this " *HOWEVER* " in asterisks and caps lock, after both people from all places, including Germany and Poland suggest that this word still echoes inside them feels quite condescending, if I can be honest.

I don't usually write stuff in such topics, but I thought I would post something this time. And now back to writing my own mods.

Edited by Lava
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10 hours ago, Daeros_Trollkiller said:

I will take this under consideration, mostly out of respect for Jastey.

*HOWEVER* - I have strong reservations about doing so.  It's used in other games.  First one that comes to mind: Phantasy Star 4.  One of the bosses (Zio, if I remember correctly), has an attack named holocaust.   And that games is a good bit older than this one.

I could go into much greater detail about why I have such reservations, but that would take this thread into a political miasma that imo, has no place in a gaming forum. 

I'll just say this and leave it at that: I am of Polish decent from immigrants who fled a certain horrific event in europe a long time ago.

 

****Edit****

After more ponderance on this, here's what I would like to do:

@jastey - Out of my respect and gratitude for you, if you could kindly come up with a replacement name for this spell, I will implement it in the next update.

Is the username you chose some sort of ironic joke?

Edited by Almateria
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Guest Graion@Work

Obvious political issues aside, I wouldn't point towards Japanese-to-English translations predating the turn of millennium when the majority were full of errors/mistranslations/bad word choices due to language barriers/cultural misunderstanding/lack of proofreading/limitations in text area. Even the Phantasy Star games are listed on https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BlindIdiotTranslation/VideoGames afterall.

Unless if it ends up as a memetic mutation like SOMEBODY SET US UP THE BOMB, I would think twice about the word usage based on such, because this goes into https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidNotDoTheBloodyResearch territory except with offensive words in general instead of swearing.

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FWIW I find it extremely disturbing to see a feminized and moefied version of Putin in some Japanese dating sim, let alone people adoring the character. Because, like, wtbf are you finding appealing about the evil incarnate... 😱😱😱

I don't presume for a second I have a right to so much as voice my opinion on the matter, though, because it's not my business to tell people what to play 🤷‍♂️

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11 hours ago, Daeros_Trollkiller said:

Out of my respect and gratitude for you, if you could kindly come up with a replacement name for this spell, I will implement it in the next update.

What comes to my mind would be Inferno. At least in German it means a firebreath, fire catastrophy of sorts.

I'm torn if the renaming is only out of respect against my feelings. I appreciate it very much! But like the example I chose above - if the word holocaust means nothing special - as a word - in English, then it's a narrow path to rename it. This is something I can't say. But it seems I am not the only one feeling bad about this, so, biased as I am, I would still think renaming it wouldn't be wrong.

(I'm pretty sure it would be renamed in a German translation.)

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