Feedback

[Demivrgvs]

Commenting from an enemy-AI perspective: anything that gets you half as many hits as you'd expect over any significant period is worth having, if you can find the time to cast it. (There's a delicate tradeoff in wizard scripting: how much time to spend renewing buffs, vs how much time to spend doing damage, and given the need to keep up Mirror Images, Stoneskins and Pro/Weapons spells, as well as anti-spell defences, there might not be room for another short-duration defence spells in wizard scripts.)

That's what I was trying to say too.

 

Incidentally, if prebuffing immediately before a battle, even a seven or eight round duration is worthwhile. My impression is that most BG2 battles are over, or at least under control, by about five or six rounds in (exception: wizard fights, where you have to wait out defences).

Let's say that with a short duration (4-6 rounds) only fighter-mages would really find this spell appealing imo...though I think it's outstanding for them, even with a short duration.

 

I don't think I'd be able to find the time to use RI in combat after about eighth level, at a guess, though it might be nice in a Minor Sequencer with Mirror Image.

I don't think they're combinable, or does using a sequencer negate this check?

Yes. As you can use Protection from Magic Weapons and the Protection from normal Weapons & Mantle with them... you can combine any and all other spells with them too, same goes for the AI casted spells, but that's it's own subject...

In this case even via sequencer you can't combine them, simply because one "cancels" the other.

 

Regarding PfNW and PfMW stacking if cast via sequencer it's true, it's a clear exploit/cheat, and I may be able to fix that (via secondary type)...

[Ardanis]

David actually gave a very good hint about short-lasting RI being unsuitable for high level combat. First, you'd probably go with Stoneskin and PFMW anyway to defend against melee, and protection from single-target spells is often covered by more universal spell and specific protection. As such, RI wouldn't add as much as it could at lower levels.

 

Thus, perhaps just leave as a low-level thing? With fixed duration of 5-6 rounds? It will allow F/Ms to engage powerful opponents right away from the start, and will also help against greater golems and such, against whom you'd probably wouldn't wish to waste expensive PFMWs.

[DavidW]

No, if MI and RI are incompatible normally then I wouldn't put them in a sequencer in SCS, any more than I'd put multiple Project Images in a Chain Contingency. It's clearly an exploit.

 

(Not that I care about blocking it. If players want to exploit the system, why should I mind?)

[Dakk]

DW, did you have an opinion of Skeleton Warriors (summoning and MR)? I think it was asked 2 pages back but then we got (unnecessarily and heatedly) sidetracked with this RI business...

[Ardanis]

(Improved) Mantle

Maybe double their AC bonus? First thing, imo +1 saves equals +2 AC, not +1, as there're far more ways to improve the to hit chance, unlike saves penalties. Second, it still comes back to not being able to tell beforehands if monster hits as +2 or as +5.

 

If you cast antiweapon, you probably mean to ensure you'll be safe, not to find yourself struck the next round. Current Mantles' AC bonus allows to avoid the worst case scenario to some extent, but imo insufficiently, while +6/+8 bonus is actually a serious thing already by itself, which can alter spells' concept from 'immunity with some bonus AC' to 'AC with bonus immunity', and with this in mind I think we can safely assume that their worst flaw IS fixed at last.

 

Absolute Immunity

As the name implies, it's better off as immunity to everything, not just weapons. Although I believe it was suggested already before.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Ardanis

[Demivrgvs]

(Improved) Mantle

Maybe double their AC bonus? First thing, imo +1 saves equals +2 AC, not +1, as there're far more ways to improve the to hit chance, unlike saves penalties. Second, it still comes back to not being able to tell beforehands if monster hits as +2 or as +5.

 

If you cast antiweapon, you probably mean to ensure you'll be safe, not to find yourself struck the next round. Current Mantles' AC bonus allows to avoid the worst case scenario to some extent, but imo insufficiently, while +6/+8 bonus is actually a serious thing already by itself, which can alter spells' concept from 'immunity with some bonus AC' to 'AC with bonus immunity', and with this in mind I think we can safely assume that their worst flaw IS fixed at last.

You do have a point, but at the same time I can assure you that even the "lesser" Mantle within SR (and SCS) grants immunity to almost anything within SoA (how many creatures have +4 weapons/attacks?), not to mention Improved Mantle (+5 ench is very very rare if I'm not wrong).

 

That being said, I do agree that for some reason the fact that you can't really be certain the spell is going to be as effective as you expected makes these spells somewhat unappealing (and the fact that PfMW is so appealing makes it worse).

 

Anyway, the change is "drastic", as it turns the spells into AC monsters, completely altering the spell concept (as you say yourself). I'd like to have more feedback from players on this matter, while at the same time I need to think about it a little more.

 

P.S the +x AC/saves idea come out from Cloak of Protection serie of items (Mantle seems to hint a similar magic)

 

 

Absolute Immunity

As the name implies, it's better off as immunity to everything, not just weapons. Although I believe it was suggested already before.

You mean immunity to ANYTHING? I "only" suggested to make it grant immunity to any form of damage (PfNW + PfMW + Pro from Energy).

 

Making it grant immunity to everything (thus including Free Action, Chaotic Command and Death Ward) scares me...wouldn't it be even more powerful than Time Stop? It would work almost as a Time Stop (though you can be de-buffed), but with slightly higher duration, and uber fast casting time (1 instead of 9!),

[Jarno Mikkola]

Absolute Immunity

As the name implies, it's better off as immunity to everything, not just weapons. Although I believe it was suggested already before.

You mean immunity to ANYTHING? I "only" suggested to make it grant immunity to any form of damage (PfNW + PfMW + Pro from Energy).

 

Making it grant immunity to everything (thus including Free Action, Chaotic Command and Death Ward) scares me...wouldn't it be even more powerful than Time Stop? It would work almost as a Time Stop (though you can be de-buffed), but with slightly higher duration, and uber fast casting time (1 instead of 9!),

Well, perhaps not trully everything, like Time Stop, defensive spells, Spell Strike, Pierce Shield, and if it's the uber casting time you are afraid of, you could adjust it (a little !!!!!!!!!!!)... although "(PfNW + PfMW + Pro from Energy)" + immunity to all hold/etc. effects sounds also nice, but they are kinda the same thing.

 

Skeleton Warriors ... Interesting notion, and great job as always David...but that actually has little to do with the main cases where this 3rd lvl summon is really OP, like fighting beholders and mind flayers.

 

And just that you're following this, may I ask your opinion on this matter?

DavidW, did you have an opinion of Skeleton Warriors (summoning and their Magic Resistance)?

Interesting question... Edited September 15, 2010 by Jarno Mikkola

[phordicus]

Invisibility Sphere needs to affect party only, or is this intentionally left as "make everyone, including neutrals and (if it's unchanged from the first time i saw it years ago) hostiles, invisible"? kinda fun but that's not the point.

 

(more)

 

k, the current (and probably original) PRO is INAREASM which is, among very few things, also used with Repulse Undead. you want INAREAPA, instead.

Edited November 11, 2010 by phordicus

[Ardanis]

Definitely yes. I once run into poisoned Harper random encounter, and the mage thug used 10' Invis, concealing the guy as well. And it being just at the start of the game, I also had no dispel anywhere.

[Demivrgvs]

Invisibility Sphere

Invisibility Sphere needs to affect party only, or is this intentionally left as "make everyone, including neutrals and (if it's unchanged from the first time i saw it years ago) hostiles, invisible"? kinda fun but that's not the point.

It's vanilla's behaviour afaik, but you're indeed right, it's almost a fix rather than a fix. Will do thanks.

 

P.S I never found a way to make it work more like PnP instead of like a Mass Invisibility. In theory a Mass version of a spell is always 3 lvls higher than the single target one, whereas it's just 1 lvl higher here, is it a problem or the spell's power is so low that it doesn't matter? Pixie Dust for example is "correct", but it look quite unappealing if I'm not wrong.

[phordicus]

P.S I never found a way to make it work more like PnP instead of like a Mass Invisibility. In theory a Mass version of a spell is always 3 lvls higher than the single target one, whereas it's just 1 lvl higher here, is it a problem or the spell's power is so low that it doesn't matter? Pixie Dust for example is "correct", but it look quite unappealing if I'm not wrong.

only thing to make it p&p is to attempt an aura via scripting. play-wise, it'd be more trouble than it's worth trying to keep all the avatars bunched up onscreen.

 

the best thing to do might be to tremendously shorten its duration --1 turn, perhaps, otherwise it's an almost invited exploit.

[Demivrgvs]

Invisibility Sphere

P.S I never found a way to make it work more like PnP instead of like a Mass Invisibility. In theory a Mass version of a spell is always 3 lvls higher than the single target one, whereas it's just 1 lvl higher here, is it a problem or the spell's power is so low that it doesn't matter? Pixie Dust for example is "correct", but it look quite unappealing if I'm not wrong.

only thing to make it p&p is to attempt an aura via scripting. play-wise, it'd be more trouble than it's worth trying to keep all the avatars bunched up onscreen.

I know, it's more or less what happened when I precviously made Pro vs Evil 10' work as per PnP Magic Circle Against Evil (as an aura with small AoE), most player hated it because it was too hard to use effectively.

 

In this case the implementation is also almost impossible afaik, thus you're probably right about it not being worth the effort.

 

the best thing to do might be to tremendously shorten its duration --1 turn, perhaps, otherwise it's an almost invited exploit.

Mmm, I can probably, it would make it work more as an "get away" rather than Mass Invisibility, and a group of thieves using it to "mass backstab" a second time wouldn't mind the shortened duration. Edited November 12, 2010 by Demivrgvs

[Ardanis]

Raise Dead & Resurrection

Bringing closer to PnP.

The former can't raise elves, incurs semi-permanent -1 CON penalty. The latter has no such drawback, but perhaps doesn't heal fully.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Ardanis

[Shaitan]

Raise Dead & Resurrection

Bringing closer to PnP.

The former can't raise elves, incurs semi-permanent -1 CON penalty. The latter has no such drawback, but perhaps doesn't heal fully.

Yes please. Yay for PnP

[yarpen]

I've made mod like this long time ago. And YES for such a change!