SR V3

[Demivrgvs]

Slow

Doesn't being slowed already provide penalties to AC/thaco? I honestly don't remember, but iirc I did have easier time hitting slowed guys than them being at normal speed.

Even so, being slowed means less ApR and that already reduces damage output about by half.

No it doesn't, thac0/AC penalties are, and always have been, applied via additional opcodes. That's what brought me to start this discussion.

 

Anyway, fixing the above mentioned technical issue may easily be the only thing we do to Haste and Slow.

 

Improved Haste

Maybe lesser ApR increase for fighters? (base-1)*2.

It's either haste opcode (+1apr) or improved haste (x2 apr), else we would create a mess imo (e.g. an improved hasted creature which is affected by slow would get half attacks and one less attack due to our change).

 

As I said I don't know how powerful this spell is considered by many playe, it surely is quite powerful but not to the point of being overpowered imo, am I wrong? That being said, the only issue I had with it is that it doesn't counter Slow, but I may change the description in some way instead of changing the spell.

[Kalindor]

As I said I don't know how powerful this spell is considered by many playe, it surely is quite powerful but not to the point of being overpowered imo, am I wrong? That being said, the only issue I had with it is that it doesn't counter Slow, but I may change the description in some way instead of changing the spell.

 

As I am usually a Sorcerer when I play multiplayer with friends, I generally take this spell by popular demand for the fighter-characters as soon as it is available. I would possibly consider selecting this spell as a sorcerer even if it was level 9 because it is just that awesome when cast on a fighter.

[Jarno Mikkola]

As I am usually a Sorcerer when I play multiplayer with friends, I generally take this spell by popular demand for the fighter-characters as soon as it is available. I would possibly consider selecting this spell as a sorcerer even if it was level 9 because it is just that awesome when cast on a fighter.

That only tells us the what you need is not a less powerful spell, but the same spell as a Mass Improved Haste on the level 9.

[Ardanis]

Another detail I recalled just now.

 

Most of 'trap' spells (Delayed FB, Skull Trap, Symbols, etc.) explode nicely when thrown onto one's head, but should they be placed in the area for the surprise purpose they require too much time to for a creature to be near to trigger, letting most of the enemies to run unharmed past the trap. So I've submitted the appropriated tweak to BG2Tweaks 2 years ago.

 

Two things to consider:

1) SR adds Fire Trap spell which afair uses different projectile and thus is unaffected

2) that delay is annoying (to me at least), so why not kill it right away within SR

 

COPY_EXISTING ~dfirebl.pro~  ~override~
		  ~iceglyp.pro~  ~override~
		  ~trapglyp.pro~ ~override~
		  ~trapskul.pro~ ~override~
 WRITE_SHORT 0x210 1
 BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

 

Also, it might be worthwhile to decrease the trigger radius as well, so that friendly units can still slip past by a wall.

The offset is 0x204, vanilla's value is 150, IESDP says 'divide by approx 8.5 to receive radius in feet'.

[Kalindor]

That only tells us the what you need is not a less powerful spell, but the same spell as a Mass Improved Haste on the level 9.

 

Oh, man. The last thing I need is more of my spellslots being eaten up to support my questionable adventuring companions.

[Shaitan]

...so how far are we?

[Guest Guest_DarkWon_*]

As I said I don't know how powerful this spell is considered by many playe, it surely is quite powerful but not to the point of being overpowered imo, am I wrong? That being said, the only issue I had with it is that it doesn't counter Slow, but I may change the description in some way instead of changing the spell.

 

It is virtually like getting one extra party member right? Except they are same Thac0 as you and have all your buffs, whereas Simulacrum would have less Thac0/buffs, but would absorb some damage too.

 

Given this, and that it is only useful for a Warrior-type or a highly buffed mage I would place it one level lower at 7th.

[DarkWon]

Haste & Slow

 

a) make Haste affect a single target (with +4 bonus to thac0, and AC, +2 save vs. breath), so that we can use equivalent penalties for Slow.

 

2) I'd like to point out that Improved Haste currently don't counter Slow despite the description (vanilla's -4 penalties to thac0 and AC weren't countered, and the same is still true for SR -1 penalties). Depending on what we decide for its lower level version we may leave it unchanged, add appropriate thac0/AC bonuses, or make it the "mass" version of Haste (a la IWD).

 

Sorry for double post, can't edit my guest post! Sounds a great idea, I am a big fan of cosistency, even if it meant making Haste only affect one creature, if they cancelled eachother out would be cool. And yes, I have noticed Slow is only 25% as powerful as it used to be, and I have always wondered, if an enemy only has 1 attack per round anyway will it even reduce their attacks?!

 

If Improved Haste provided the +2 then definately make it 8th level! (ala my suggestion above) Too me its just one of those milestone spells that once you get it the game gets a lot easier

[Demivrgvs]

...so how far are we?

I've done tons of small changes (I'll try to track down and post here some of the more noticeable ones) and tests, and I'd say 95% of the work is done. Updating the documentation files is going to be time consuming though. Anyway, if anyone want to help me out beta testing it I'd be glad to send him my current V3.

 

Slow, Haste & Improved Haste

(Improved Haste)... is virtually like getting one extra party member right? Except they are same Thac0 as you and have all your buffs, whereas Simulacrum would have less Thac0/buffs, but would absorb some damage too.

 

Given this, and that it is only useful for a Warrior-type or a highly buffed mage I would place it one level lower at 7th.

Wow, I never compared it with Simulacrum, but it makes sense to a certain extent. Anyway, Simulacrum has some noticeable advantages (the clone isn't dispellable; it's a "secondary target" with almost same hit points and saves), and a cloned spellcaster is a completely different matter imo. You're probably right though that casted on a fully buffed and enraged Berserker this spell effectively doubles the already incredible damage potential. I take it you consider this spell a little overpowered for its level but I'm not going to change its spell slot level as I always try to avoid this sort of things as much as I can (rebalancing the spell while keeping its spell slot is generally a much better solution, especially when it comes to compatibility and the way the AI handles these changes).

 

a) make Haste affect a single target (with +4 bonus to thac0, and AC, +2 save vs. breath), so that we can use equivalent penalties for Slow.

 

2) I'd like to point out that Improved Haste currently don't counter Slow despite the description (vanilla's -4 penalties to thac0 and AC weren't countered, and the same is still true for SR -1 penalties). Depending on what we decide for its lower level version we may leave it unchanged, add appropriate thac0/AC bonuses, or make it the "mass" version of Haste (a la IWD).

Sounds a great idea, I am a big fan of cosistency, even if it meant making Haste only affect one creature, if they cancelled eachother out would be cool.

Making Haste a single target spell is a delicate matter imo, and I'd like to take more time to think about it, and possibly discuss it with more players. The change would be needed only if Slow is considered too nerfed by most of you (and it doesn't seem so), or if Haste is considered too powerful even with the fatigue effect (it may be, but I never heard any complain about it).

 

And yes, I have noticed Slow is only 25% as powerful as it used to be, and I have always wondered, if an enemy only has 1 attack per round anyway will it even reduce their attacks?!

Probably not, but I never tested it.

[yarpen]

Making Haste a single target spell

Noooo! Traveling at larger maps as De'Arnise Keep etc. is boring and I always haste my characters, even if there's lack of any danger around - just for improved move speed.

[Shaitan]

Making Haste a single target spell

Noooo! Traveling at larger maps as De'Arnise Keep etc. is boring and I always haste my characters, even if there's lack of any danger around - just for improved move speed.

Couldn't you just alter the frame rate?

[DrAzTiK]

Imo Haste is too much powerfull if used constantly like a prebuff. ( I personnaly do it when i have difficulty to win a fight...) I

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, I have the whole afternoon free, and considering how late I am compared to the expected release date I'm going to dedicate the whole time to finish V3. I've done 95% of the work, but things that doesn't require too much time can still be done.

 

Bless, Aid & Chant

I've just discovered Bless and Aid also add +1 to damage, thus I've updated the description, and Bless won't last 1 turn/level as I previously planned but 5 turns (as its power is actually twice as much as I thought).

 

Chant opcode wasn't affecting saves (it actually applies a luck bonus/penalty to hit and damage rolls), thus I've added them manually.

 

Command

Should we do something about it? It currently doesn't allow a save to creatures with less than 6HD (a feature which was only added by BG2 if I'm not wrong), which makes it quite effective in BG1, but it doesn't scale with caster level and thus it quickly become incredibly less effective. In BG1 it didn't allowed a save at all (with no HD check), but what about making it work this way:

- creatures with less HD than the caster are not allowed a save (or with x levels less than the caster if needed)

- creatures with equal or more HD than the caster are allowed a save (creatures with 20HD or more are always allowed to save against it)

This should make the spell almost as effective as it was in BG1, but it would keep its usefulness for the entire game. What do you think?

 

Power Word Sleep

We never touched this spell because we didn't wanted to add a save to a PW spell, but if we agree on changing Command I suppose there's a similar tweak that we may apply to this spell. PW: Sleep may cause 1 round of unconsciousness just like Command does, but without HD limits, creaures with less than 20hp will still be kept unconscious for more time (it currently lasts 5 rounds but we may raise it to 1 turn to match all the other PW spells).

 

Let me know if these two suggestions make sense (is a single round of unconsciousness too effective? Immunity to sleep is quite common if I'm not wrong, but more experienced players or DavidW should now its effectiveness better than me). Changing PW would take an instant but Command would require some time.

 

Haste

Imo Haste is too much powerfull if used constantly like a prebuff. ( I personnaly do it when i have difficulty to win a fight...)

Should I restore a "permanent" fatigue penalty on top of the short lasting exhaustion? A smaller value than the 4 points used in vanilla may reduce the number of times you can use the spell each day before having the whole party fatigued.

[Shaitan]

Ok, I have the whole afternoon free, and considering how late I am compared to the expected release date I'm going to dedicate the whole time to finish V3. I've done 95% of the work, but things that doesn't require too much time can still be done.

 

 

Bless, Aid & Chant

I've just discovered Bless and Aid also add +1 to damage, thus I've updated the description, and Bless won't last 1 turn/level as I previously planned but 5 turns (as its power is actually twice as much as I thought).

 

Chant opcode wasn't affecting saves (it actually applies a luck bonus/penalty to hit and damage rolls), thus I've added them manually.

 

 

Command

Should we do something about it? It currently doesn't allow a save to creatures with less than 6HD (a feature which was only added by BG2 if I'm not wrong), which makes it quite effective in BG1, but it doesn't scale with caster level and thus it quickly become incredibly less effective. In BG1 it didn't allowed a save at all (with no HD check), but what about making it work this way:

- creatures with equal or more HD than the caster are allowed a save (creatures with 20HD or more are always allowed to save against it)

 

I don't think we have to make every spell usefull at all times.

 

Power Word Sleep

We never touched this spell because we didn't wanted to add a save to a PW spell, but if we agree on changing Command I suppose there's a similar tweak that we may apply to this spell. PW: Sleep may cause 1 round of unconsciousness just like Command does, but without HD limits, creaures with less than 20hp will still be kept unconscious for more time (it currently lasts 5 rounds but we may raise it to 1 turn to match all the other PW spells).

 

I think we should make all PW spells consistent, thus 1 turn should be fine.

 

Haste

Imo Haste is too much powerfull if used constantly like a prebuff. ( I personnaly do it when i have difficulty to win a fight...)

Should I restore a "permanent" fatigue penalty on top of the short lasting exhaustion? A smaller value than the 4 points used in vanilla may reduce the number of times you can use the spell each day before having the whole party fatigued.

 

I don't think so. There're so many ways of altering speed/adding haste, that I prefer the short exhaustion you added.

 

Thanks for your hard work

[Demivrgvs]

Strength of Stone

I've made it slightly more similar to its PnP version rather than an exact copy of mage's 2nd level spell Strength. It's not castable on other creatures anymore, and for the duration of the spell the subject is immune to everything, magical and otherwise, that pushes him away (e.g. wing buffets, gusts of wind, telekinesis, etc.), but moves at reduced speed.

 

Command

Should we do something about it? It currently doesn't allow a save to creatures with less than 6HD (a feature which was only added by BG2 if I'm not wrong), which makes it quite effective in BG1, but it doesn't scale with caster level and thus it quickly become incredibly less effective. In BG1 it didn't allowed a save at all (with no HD check), but what about making it work this way:

- creatures with less HD than the caster are not allowed a save (or with x levels less than the caster if needed)

- creatures with equal or more HD than the caster are allowed a save (creatures with 20HD or more are always allowed to save against it)

I don't think we have to make every spell usefull at all times.

Why not? I don't like the huge gap between its effectiveness in BG1 and its almost uselessness in BG2, but if most players vote to keep it as it is I can live with that (less work to do ).

 

Power Word Sleep

We never touched this spell because we didn't wanted to add a save to a PW spell, but if we agree on changing Command I suppose there's a similar tweak that we may apply to this spell. PW: Sleep may cause 1 round of unconsciousness just like Command does, but without HD limits, creaures with less than 20hp will still be kept unconscious for more time (it currently lasts 5 rounds but we may raise it to 1 turn to match all the other PW spells).

I think we should make all PW spells consistent, thus 1 turn should be fine.

1 vote for 1 turn than! But what about the other suggested feature?