IR V3 - List of changes from V2 to V3

[Jarno Mikkola]

heavy x/bows - >30

smaller ones - 24-25, as Mercurier says

axes - 20

daggers/darts - 15

Sounds good enough to me, though I'd push down axes together with daggers/darts.

Well yeah. I would actually put them like this:

Long Bows - > 40

Heavy Crossbows and Short bows - >30

Light Cross bows - 25

Daggers and Darts - 20

Throwing Axes/Hammers - 15

 

The only problem is, the Long Bows can't target 3 = Dead char's, which means they'll always stay at the range of 30+1 or something.

[Demivrgvs]

Range of Ranged Weapon

Ok, it seems reducing throwing weapons range to 15 may be more interesting/appropriate especially by looking at DrAzTiK's screenshot (though daggers and darts may keep 20 imo).

 

I'm instead quite against lowering short bow and light xbow range because their current range is already ridiculously low. Wouldn't you find incredibly strange to not being able to shot a target 30 feet away with a short bow?

 

P.S I may be able to increase instead the range of bows/xbos beyond "hardcoded" limits, but before doing it I'd need to be absolutely sure the AI can handle it. A "realistic" range would probably disintegrate vanilla's AI because characters hit outside their visual range more often than not wouldn't react. Does SCS/RR AI react to this?

 

This tweak might help compensate the fact that there is no artifact-level long bow in BG2.

Well, if unique long bows are still less appealing then unique short bows we should work on that!

 

Strength bonus for ranged weapons

I prefer no str bonus for thrown weapons considering balance issue. And for slings, as Demi said, allowing using with shield is already a big advantage, and don't forget we have Sling of Seeking which does have str bonus.

Do you mean I should remove strength bonus from throwing axes/hammers/spears? I'm not sure about it because ranged weapons have indeed some advantages to balance the lack of strength bonuses:

- base damage of boxs/xbow is usually higher (especially for long and heavy versions)

- ammos add damage/to hit/special bonuses on top of item's base abilities

- darts have very low damage output but +2 apr, daggers have +1 apr, bows have +1/2 apr (+1 in vanilla), and xbow are the most accurate (IR adds +1 to base thac0) and damaging (1d8/1d10) ranged weapons.

[Ardanis]

P.S I may be able to increase instead the range of bows/xbos beyond "hardcoded" limits, but before doing it I'd need to be absolutely sure the AI can handle it. A "realistic" range would probably disintegrate vanilla's AI because characters hit outside their visual range more often than not wouldn't react. Does SCS/RR AI react to this?

You can't shoot beyond LOS, even if the weapon would allow for it (blind archer is the best example). So unless there is a fair number of items/spells/innates to increase the sight range beyond the 15 value (and I know of none so far), it won't make a difference.

[Salk]

Range of Ranged Weapon

Ok, it seems reducing throwing weapons range to 15 may be more interesting/appropriate especially by looking at DrAzTiK's screenshot (though daggers and darts may keep 20 imo).

 

I'm instead quite against lowering short bow and light xbow range because their current range is already ridiculously low. Wouldn't you find incredibly strange to not being able to shot a target 30 feet away with a short bow?

 

I'd agree with you if not that a smaller range for lighter bows and crossbows would be consistent with the internal limitations for ranged weapons (max. is LOS). A range of 30 is ridicolously low for Long Bows and Crossbows but since this is the limit we have to deal with, all the rest must be tweaked accordingly.

 

Ranged Weapons:

 

Heavy Xbows/Long Bows/Composite Long Bows: 30 (No STR Bonus)

Light Xbows/Short Bows: 25 (No STR Bonus)

Throwing Daggers/Darts/Slings: 20 (No STR Bonus)

Spears/Throwing Axes: 15 (+STR Bonus)

[Shaitan]

Hi!

 

How are stuff going? I know I haven't done anything, but I think I owe you to do a whole playthrough with IR2 before making any clever comments.

 

Cheers

[yarpen]

What do you think about a bit of revisions for Demi's weapon damages:

Flail: 1K7 +1 piercing

Morningstar: 2K3 +1K2 piercing

Hammer: 2K2

 

Flail's spikes aren't so big, they deal only a bit of damage but these from Morningstar aren't. They can be quite heavy and long so they can even slash through the armor. And Hammer... this damage amount looks a bit silly, still Hammer on average always deal some damage. When using sword you can do a tiny wound or slash trough the neck of your opponent. But someone who got hurt by hammer is always deep in sh*t. It doesn't make a lot of wounds but damages to internal organs are killin' you.

 

Demi, where are u?

[Demivrgvs]

Demi, where are u?

Who dares to summon the Lord of Overwriting? Jokes aside I'm sorry I haven't been around a lot lately, I'm incredibly busy and didn't mod at all in the last few weeks. I'll resume my work asap.

 

What do you think about a bit of revisions for Demi's weapon damages:

Flail: 1K7 +1 piercing

Morningstar: 2K3 +1K2 piercing

Hammer: 2K2

 

Flail's spikes aren't so big, they deal only a bit of damage but these from Morningstar aren't. They can be quite heavy and long so they can even slash through the armor. And Hammer... this damage amount looks a bit silly, still Hammer on average always deal some damage. When using sword you can do a tiny wound or slash trough the neck of your opponent. But someone who got hurt by hammer is always deep in sh*t. It doesn't make a lot of wounds but damages to internal organs are killin' you.

Flail: d7 sounds "strange" for some reason, but a small piercing damage can probably make sense.

Morningstar: my proposed solution is almost identical, but yours is a little too damaging imo. I understand the concept (you want this weapon's piercing damage higher than flail's one) but the end result would be slightly unbalanced imo (3-8 would be the best one-handed weapon).

Hammer: 2-4 seems instead too much "a nerf" to me. I fear many players (like me long time ago) already considered 2-5 unappealing.

[yarpen]

About Morningstar you're right - so maybe 1K6 +1K2?

About Hammer damn, you're right again - 3K2?

[Demivrgvs]

Well well, this weekend I should finally be able to partially resume my work on V3...just to let you know I've not abandoned the various Revisions mods even if unfortunately my time is extremely limited.

Weapon Changes

About Morningstar you're right - so maybe 1K6 +1K2?

About Hammer damn, you're right again - 3K2?

Eh eh...you must really hate vanilla's damage for hammers! Anyway, I personally think that using vanilla's values if approppriate and balanced is the best solution...mainly because of the "blending" factor (both with other mods and vanilla feeling), but I may be wrong.

 

P.S Slashing Halberds component should make them deal 1d12 damage when used as a slashing weapon.

[Ardanis]

Well well, this weekend I should finally be able to partially resume my work on V3...just to let you know I've not abandoned the various Revisions mods even if unfortunately my time is extremely limited.

Good news. Another round of flame wars and troll breeding discussions is ahead

 

Halberds

Slashing Halberds component should make them deal 1d12 damage when used as a slashing weapon.

While it's reasonable for them to swing harder than to thrust, that raises a question - what's the benefit of the piercing mode?

[yarpen]

Longer range, that's for sure. And far better speed factor.

[Demivrgvs]

Well well, this weekend I should finally be able to partially resume my work on V3...just to let you know I've not abandoned the various Revisions mods even if unfortunately my time is extremely limited.

Good news. Another round of flame wars and troll breeding discussions is ahead

 

Halberds

Slashing Halberds component should make them deal 1d12 damage when used as a slashing weapon.

While it's reasonable for them to swing harder than to thrust, that raises a question - what's the benefit of the piercing mode?

Longer range, that's for sure. And far better speed factor.

Without adding any further change piercing damage has better hit chances against any type of armor, if I'm not wrong. Anyway, I just suggested it because ages ago Mike made me notice that the current solution is almost useless (same damage, same or worst thac0 in any situation), it surely isn't a big issue.

[yarpen]

So I think that making it a bit more different (1k12 damage and 10 speed factor of slashing vs. 1k10 damage and 8 speed factor for piercing) shouldn't be a drastic change - but it's still a nice add-on. Reducing slashing range would be too drastic I think.

 

Still I'm not sure about the damage. Piercing damage is usually more effective against armored enemies. It's easier to push hard, also tiny spot makes it easier to go trough the armor. Slashing is far more damaging for non-armored oponents. Slashing trough plate is a fantasy, but when you're using piercing mode you have to hit some important organs quite preciesly, one slash usually does the trick. Dunno how to implement this, I remember that Sorrow was adding AD&D bonuses to crossbows (but it was quite ridicolous, something like +5 to thaco against armoured enemies) and to 2h swords/halberds and flails (+2, imo still to high). But I don't think that something so far from standarised weapon rules is proper.

[SixOfSpades]

Halberds

While it's reasonable for them to swing harder than to thrust, that raises a question - what's the benefit of the piercing mode?

Longer range, that's for sure. And far better speed factor.

A slightly longer range would make sense in real-world dynamics, but there's nothing "slight" about the ranges of melee weapons. In vanilla, Daggers are 0, all other 1-Handers are 1, and all 2-Handed melee weapons have a range of 2, so each unit of range averages out to be about 4 feet. I don't see a user suddenly gaining that much extra reach when using his Halberd to stab with, nor does it make sense that it would be longer than a Spear. It might be a worthwhile to experiment with a Pike, which actually does have a range of 3, but that doesn't really sound like IR.

 

 

The REAL reason I made this post was to ask about sight range. It's 30 units, isn't it?

[yarpen]

You're certainly right, Six. But speed factor bonus 'd be just fine. When you want to slash it lasts longer to prepare than to thrust.