Improved Anvil v5+ and BWL

[Demivrgvs]

The funny thing about this is that I was the first one to suggest/discuss this TS feature in the forums, but now if I'll ever want to do something like that for SR (which I can't because I'd need vanilla AI and SCS to take it into account ) I'd be accused by Sikret of stealing his great idea!

I probably can account for it, actually: it's already a console-activated option (for enemies) in SCS. If you set DMWWNoTimestopMelee to 2, nobody makes physical attacks during Timestop. (If you set it to 1, only Melissan does). So just get SR to set it to 2 in-game if your component is installed. (In the vanilla game, you'll confuse endgame Melissan)

 

(It's not an extensively tested option, though - offhand, I can't recall whether it blocks Timestop-immune creatures from attacking in other people's timestops.)

Ohh...interesting...I'll have think a little about this then when the time comes.

 

 

In addition, what is a thief supposed to do during a time trap (without questioning how they got to make those traps)?

Occam's Razor says that Thieves shouldn't get Time Traps.

Indeed!

[DavidW]

To be honest, I never saw much sense in how spell casting is handled during time stop. All the spells that you cast during the timestop fly towards their foes when the timestop has finished, so how should I view that? Were all of the spells and projectiles you have cast also stopped in time from when they left your fingertips? In that case, they should freeze when they are still coming out of your fingertips

 

This is just a natural consequence of the physics of temporal-stasis-class effects. In layman's terms, Timestop works by shifting the frequency of the chronomorphic field of the caster so as to be out of sync with the chronomorphic fields of nearby objects and creatures, thus, in effect, "preventing time flowing" for the exterior of the field. Since spell projectiles are created inside the caster's chronomorphic field, they acquire the same chronal frequency and so their internal time flow remains in sync with the caster's: thus, relative to the caster they evolve normally. Upon hitting their target, though (whether that target is an animate object or a point on the ground) there is unavoidable interference between the chronomorphic fields of projectile and target, thus downshifting the frequency of the projectile relative to the caster and causing the projectile to "drop back into time", so to speak. (Strictly speaking, there is an equal and opposite reaction on the target's chronomorphic field, so that its frequency increases, but - since the target remains synchronised with the surroundings - the relative masses, and so the relative temporal inertias, are so large that the effect is unnoticeable, at least given the confusion of battle.)

 

I hope that clears it up.

[the bigg]

I thought the DM's manual discouraged from applying real world physics to the game. Also, your WoT doesn't describe the observed effects of TS: projectiles stay at the creation point while under TS, rather than traveling to the target under TS and activating once TS expires

[cmorgan]

It does if you postulate that timestop creates an independent 'bubble' of time disconnect, like many science fiction stories from the '80s postilate (including some very cool use of such "bubbling", or encapsulating, as a weapon - what happens when you give someone a "time-out" for a few hundred years... I have got to go look up this reference! In an old Analog, I think) such that nothing can enter or leave the "bubble" until time regains equilibrium between the outer and inner spaces. The hassle with this is why the spells don't expire. If they are created in caster real-time, and then are stacked up, how do they target? (heh. As if magic needs a reasonable rationale!) To an observer, there would be no evidence of anything happening until suddenly WHAMMO. To the caster, there would be little or no observable change, save they couldn't move outside of that bubble, and objects entering the bubble would equalize with the caster and therefore be interactive.

 

... or we could just say that the game designers did the best they could with a very odd concept to begin with

[cmorgan]

Got it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marooned_in_Realtime

 

series of three books. I only read the serialized Analog version. Cool ideas, though!

[Guest!]

Iirc, the Player's Handbook states that Time Stop doesn't actually "stop time", rather it accelerates the mage to the point where everything else seems to be standing still.

[DavidW]

I thought the DM's manual discouraged from applying real world physics to the game.

 

Who said anything about real-world physics?

[the bigg]

I assumed your WoT was based on your professional work and/or otherwise plausible extrapolations from the current understanding of Unified Field Theory (but then again, I should've noticed the 'I hope that clears it up.').

[Demivrgvs]

Iirc, the Player's Handbook states that Time Stop doesn't actually "stop time", rather it accelerates the mage to the point where everything else seems to be standing still.

That's 3rd edition TS, whereas AD&D PHB stated that TS creates a bubble/sphere within which time is indeed stopped, and all creatures except the caster (and powerful beings) are "frozen in their actions, literally between the ticks of the time clock". I'd say 3rd edition TS is a sort Super Haste, whereas 2nd edition wanted to be a True Time Stop (which probably cannot really make sense for a human mind).

 

Ironically, 3rd edition one doesn't let the caster harm other creatures during TS, which is strange considering its concept doesn't really suggest any reason to disallow it, while AD&D one could have.

[Nominar]

That's 3rd edition TS, whereas AD&D PHB stated that TS creates a bubble/sphere within which time is indeed stopped, and all creatures except the caster (and powerful beings) are "frozen in their actions, literally between the ticks of the time clock". I'd say 3rd edition TS is a sort Super Haste, whereas 2nd edition wanted to be a True Time Stop (which probably cannot really make sense for a human mind).

A true Time Stop doesn't quite make sense in our real world, as time really isn't anything except what clocks measure. I always thought that time in the D&D Multiverse was like the classical physicists thought, a universal thing and in some sense all things on a prime plane flowed continually and together through it at the same speed. I recall reading about the plane of time somewhere (probably Manual of the Planes 3.5) where one could travel back and forth in time.

 

The way I understood TS in BG was that there was an actual TS happening, except for some small space reserved for the caster and as spells begin to exit that space they slow down fast at first but decreasingly after that and they never truly get to the edge of that reserved space (except after and infinite amount of time). After TS expires they speed up. If the caster moves after casting a spell so would their field of normal time except in effect there's constantly a new field being generated so previously cast spells wouldn't be affected. I think this could be a good explanation as to why melee won't work, because same goes for your weapons: they slow down infinitely much at the edge and would possible be stuck there (because your space would be shaped by the distance to the target if you're close enough). However if we go by this we should at least be able to get one hit on the target right after TS expires, although that attack would maybe feel "jerked" and not really effective. Maybe this explanation is the same as DavidW (I always think of David Warner when I read your name, hehe) gave but I must admit I didn't understand it entirely.

 

I must say this is a genuinely interesting discussion.

[DavidW]

I assumed your WoT was based on your professional work and/or otherwise plausible extrapolations from the current understanding of Unified Field Theory

 

That's absolutely correct.

 

On an unrelated note, can I interest you in a bridge I'm trying to sell?

[DavidW]

That's 3rd edition TS, whereas AD&D PHB stated that TS creates a bubble/sphere within which time is indeed stopped, and all creatures except the caster (and powerful beings) are "frozen in their actions, literally between the ticks of the time clock". I'd say 3rd edition TS is a sort Super Haste, whereas 2nd edition wanted to be a True Time Stop (which probably cannot really make sense for a human mind).

A true Time Stop doesn't quite make sense in our real world, as time really isn't anything except what clocks measure.

 

OK, now I am being serious (I was just messing around in the previous post about chronometric fields, sorry...).

 

It's not indefensible to think that "time is just what clocks measure" but it's fairly contentious. More common is the view that time is physically real (one aspect of spacetime) and clocks measure that physically real thing. (Crude explanation of what drives that view: if time is just what clocks measure, how can clocks run slow? ... more to say here, obviously).

 

Real physics does allow system A to measure a much shorter time duration than system B, but it's not trivial to do: either send system A off on a very fast (i.e. close-to-light-speed) round trip, or dump system A in a very strong (i.e., close-to-a-black-hole strong) gravitational field.

 

To be sure, that's the answer according to contemporary physics. But we don't have a unified physical theory that can handle both gravity (i.e., spacetime that does weird things in the presence of matter) and quantum theory (i.e. our best theory of matter). It's not crazy to suppose that you could do weird, Timestop-style things if you had a theory that combined both...but equally, there's no evidence that you could.

 

None of this is really relevant to BG2 (still less to the IA smacktalk thread!) I'm just indulging my university-lecturer streak.

[Nominar]

Ooook, I think I'll just stick to mathematics and D&D physics Do you have a degree in physics? Sorry for going so off topic.

[the bigg]

On an unrelated note, can I interest you in a bridge I'm trying to sell?

Nope, but I'm interested in buying that sphere that just appeared in the Slum District for 500 gold pieces.

 

And hey, I'm using FFT for my (Master's) Degee thesis, so 'time frequency' does have a meaning to me.

 

None of this is really relevant to BG2 (still less to the IA smacktalk thread!) I'm just indulging my university-lecturer streak.

Somebody (Cam?) once said that G3 is the best Internet community EVAR because smack talk threads degenerate spontaneously into discussion of physics and philosophy rather than into name calling. So, the more the merrier!

[Ardanis]

Somebody (Cam?) once said that G3 is the best Internet community EVAR because smack talk threads degenerate spontaneously into discussion of physics and philosophy rather than into name calling. So, the more the merrier!

Has it been prior to Temujin's apprearance?