IR v3 Feedback

[kreso]

Kiel morning star et Berserk two handed sword :

 

These 2 items have one big problem. The fact that they are cursed make impossible for the character to switch to a ranged weapon or another mele weapon.

 

What about apply for these weapons the same Frenzy effect on hit you have made up in Kit revisions?

 

Kit revisions' Frenzy doesn't allow for changing weapons either. But I agree, the drawback for using these weapons is huge and they really could be more powerful.

[DrAzTiK]

At least it would allow to switch weapon in non fighting periods without the need to cast break enchantement. A character would also be able to begin the fight in ranged weapons and use the frenzy weapons only if there is no other options.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserking weapons

These 2 items have one big problem. The fact that they are cursed make impossible for the character to switch to a ranged weapon or another mele weapon.

 

What about apply for these weapons the same Frenzy effect on hit you have made up in Kit revisions?

Kit revisions' Frenzy doesn't allow for changing weapons either. But I agree, the drawback for using these weapons is huge and they really could be more powerful.

On one side I understand your issue, otoh I'd like to point out that these two items in particular are not intended to just be berserking weapons, but also cursed weapons. Thus, leaving aside untested workarounds (*) your request pratically is to "make these two items not cursed", and I'm not sure I'm all for it for various reasons. Let's just say that IR do strives to make cursed items interesting and somewhat appealing, but keeping them cursed is a must imo.

 

(*) I've just had a crazy idea of mine. These weapons could use a KR-like berserk system, but using "use EFF file as curse" (283). Then Break Enchantment might be able to remove it without even needing further tweaks. I'll think about it.

[Ardanis]

Those are BG1 items, the sword in particular being available quite early. I think its +3 enchantment well makes up for the cursed status.

[yarpen]

Protector of the Second

- aura that gives +1 AC to your teammates

 

Karajah's Armor

- isn't +2 bonus to Dexterity a bit too much?

 

Bladesinger Chain

"Whenever wearer attacks, his teammates gain +1 bonus to Attack Rolls and Saving Throws for next round" as it's supposed to be Bard's favorite chainvest - so it imitates their ability of Bardsong while fighting. Similiar to Blade of Roses.

 

Robe of the Battlemage

It still sucks.

 

Suryis's Blade +2

Perfect candidate for cheap Cleave Halberd. I'd actually drop the ability from Wyrmcleaver and put it right here instead of that generic stun. I'd even consider lowering it's enchantment to +1 and make it relatively cheap so Halberdiers can actually buy it.

 

The Equalizer

I really believe it needs more epicness. Maybe +2 bonus to AC/ST from Good and Evil characters? I mean... really. Finishing this sword takes years. And then you're finding friggin random Answerer that just beats it 90% of times.

 

The Answerer

Could be +3 weapon to be honest.

 

Arabane Sword

Turn it's pseudo-haste into on-hit ability. Nobody ever used that activated ability. Ever.

 

Edwin's Amulet

If you can add another prohibited school to Edwin, then do it. Red Mages in PnP were supposed to be double-specialization ones.

 

Hallowed Redeemer

Making this weapon +3 (+1 damage/thaco) would make it much more usefull during most of the game.

[April]

Robe of the Battlemage

It still sucks.

Actually almost brokenly good for fighter -> mage dual classes imo. Would be even better if blade's could use it.

 

Hallowed Redeemer

Making this weapon +3 (+1 damage/thaco) would make it much more usefull during most of the game.

There's a good precedent with having equipment the npcs arrive with being +2 at best, I see no good reason for breaking that. Especially for 2 handed swords, one of the weapon types with the most unique highly enchanted weapons in the game.

[Demivrgvs]

Protector of the Second

- aura that gives +1 AC to your teammates

It would not be appealing on a light armor with quite bad AC imo.

 

Karajah's Armor

- isn't +2 bonus to Dexterity a bit too much?

I have the same concern, but at the same time it's the only thing which makes it truly appealing and keep it as such for a while. If I lower it to +1 DEX I fear this armor would get discarded quite soon, am I wrong?

 

Bladesinger Chain

"Whenever wearer attacks, his teammates gain +1 bonus to Attack Rolls and Saving Throws for next round" as it's supposed to be Bard's favorite chainvest - so it imitates their ability of Bardsong while fighting. Similiar to Blade of Roses.

I do thought about something similar, but for some reason it doesn't fully convince me. Mmm...

 

Robe of the Battlemage

It still sucks.

What do you mean? In terms of effectiveness as April just posted it's actually extremely powerful on the right character (e.g. a F/M in particular, but also a C/M to a lesser extent or even a Transmuter who heavily focuses on Polymorph Self and Shapechange). If you don't like the concept or the implementation feel free to suggest alternatives.

 

Suryis's Blade

Perfect candidate for cheap Cleave Halberd. I'd actually drop the ability from Wyrmcleaver and put it right here instead of that generic stun. I'd even consider lowering it's enchantment to +1 and make it relatively cheap so Halberdiers can actually buy it.

I do consider the current solution rather generic, and if it wasn't for BGEE I would have probably replaced it with what they did for their Chelsey Crusher halberd (probably the only decent idea they had about weapons). That being said, I see no reason to alter the Wyrmcleaver as it's pretty cool as it is, isn't it?

 

The Equalizer

I really believe it needs more epicness. Maybe +2 bonus to AC/ST from Good and Evil characters? I mean... really. Finishing this sword takes years. And then you're finding friggin random Answerer that just beats it 90% of times.

You're not the first one to complain about this weapon, but I do fail to see why you guys think this weapon is "meh". Compared to vanilla this weapon has been boosted considerably, and now is one the most damaging 1handed weapons in the game (competing with things like FoA and Foebane). It does not have "flashy" abilities, but it's a solid weapon which deals tremendous physical damage (+8 or +10 against 90% of your opponents) while offering two very convenient immunities. Is it just because it does not have a "wow" factor, or am I missing something?

 

The Answerer

Could be +3 weapon to be honest.

Yes it could.

 

Arbane's Sword

Turn it's pseudo-haste into on-hit ability. Nobody ever used that activated ability. Ever.

I do agree on this. It was planned many years ago (see item index notes about this sword).

 

Edwin's Amulet

If you can add another prohibited school to Edwin, then do it. Red Mages in PnP were supposed to be double-specialization ones.

I suggested it ages ago and I think pretty much everyone was against it. Nonetheless, I do have plans for this item.

 

Hallowed Redeemer

Making this weapon +3 (+1 damage/thaco) would make it much more usefull during most of the game.

I was thinking to replace the current Holy enhancement (+6 dmg vs. evil) with Righteous (+2 thac0/dmg vs. evil - the same effect used by Daystar), but as April says raising an NPC weapon to +3 might be seen as an unnecessary buff, even though Keldorn is supposed to be one of the most experienced NPC considering his background. Overall it would probably be better to just make NPCs items upgrade at forges, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon, if ever.

[yarpen]

Well, I believe I have to agree with everything you've said. Then besides of those minor things, I believe IR lacks of one thing to be perfect (for me).

 

Reducing the overall enchantment of weapon. I know that Answerer is +4 because you have found it in Throne of Baal. But remember, not every opponent has protection from certain enchanted weapons. Making weapons much more distinct by reducing their Enchantments (and sometimes buffing those), reintroducing +1 weapons to the game and maybe even making some magical weapon non-magical (the oversized 2-handed sword would be perfect one for the job. It's just well done and huge enough to make it unique)

I mean, there's much more to be done while approprietyl balancing the weapons with their Enchantment Level. Why Answerer is comparable to equalizer? I'd say it's even better. Making Answerer +3 or EVEN +2 (it's still a really good blade to use against 'mortals' as the abilities are sick, but it shouldn't be that usefull against demons and angels and stuff).

[kreso]

Karajah's Armor

If I lower it to +1 DEX I fear this armor would get discarded quite soon, am I wrong?

Isn't this Leather, and not Studded Leather? It's a bad armor (type) which very few can actually benefit from (say, a ranged specialist with 16 dex or similar, and I'd still have doubts - Leather armors are bad vs missiles)

 

 

Robe of the Battlemage

It still sucks.

What do you mean? In terms of effectiveness as April just posted it's actually extremely powerful on the right character (e.g. a F/M in particular, but also a C/M to a lesser extent or even a Transmuter who heavily focuses on Polymorph Self and Shapechange). If you don't like the concept or the implementation feel free to suggest alternatives.

I wouldn't use it on f/m over the one with casting level bonuses (or Bladesinger when you get it), but for a character like Imoen (or Jan) this is tailor-made. It's fine as it is, especially when coupled with Bracers of Archery for example - Imoen in my game is a thief/mage/archer and excells at any of these roles. In BG1, it's even better. Casters of Melf's Meteors benefit greatly from wearing this.

 

Suryis's Blade

It's OP in BG1.

 

The Equalizer

Imo, one of the, if not the best 1-h weapon in game. Huge damage, +4(!) enchacement, with exellent immunities to boot. I don't know what's not to like (apart usability flags). For me, a weapon valid from the moment you forge it to Ascension.

 

The Answerer

I don't like it, nor find it of any use. +1 apr when struck sounds much better than it is - and by the time you get it, Imp.Haste is a cheap spell.

 

Arbane's Sword

Turn it's pseudo-haste into on-hit ability.

+1

 

Edwin's Amulet

I'd leave it as it is, actually. Fighting Rayic Gethras with SCS at level 9 can be frustrating beyond belief (he's a very high level mage) so you may consider this amulet as a "reward" for killing him.

 

Hallowed Redeemer

I think it's fine as it is. +2 is in line with other NPC equipment, for +3 sword there's Lirarcor early enough.

[Demivrgvs]

IR affecting game difficulty

From your own admission, the tendency of IR is to make the game slightly harder for the player and in my own experience it's been even too zealous in that. IR tries very much to nerf down those items that in the vanilla game make the player have an edge over the AI much more than trying to make weaker items become more powerful.

I only admitted that if I have to choose between making it slightly easier or slightly harder I would surely pick the latter, but I really don't know if in its current state IR makes the game harder.

 

When it comes to "nerfing OP items vs. buffing UP ones" I actually think IR does the latter more.

- I have heavily nerfed brokenly OP items such as the Shield of Cheese, the Cloak of Cheese and the Staff of the Magi, but all of those nerfed items are still objectively uber powerful. Those who think weapons like Crom Fayer or Carsomyr are too heavily nerfed really don't know what they say imo (Crom Faeyr might actually be more powerful than before imo).

- I have reduced the overall enchantment level of armors and weapons in particular, but even then those items tend to be better than they were because of their new "while equipped" effects or "combat abilities".

- Overall, if you make two lists, one for nerfed items, and one for buffed ones, I'm almost sure the list of items which have been improved will be extremely longer than the other one (*)

 

(*) This brings me back to the "IR makes the game harder/easier". Other players may be better entitled than me (or at least less biased) to answer this dilemma, but my opinion is that IR does not affect the difficulty per se, but it can actually make the game "easier" in terms of building characters/parties of any type because with IR a much higher number of items will suit them regardless of player choices (e.g. they can pick almost any class or weapon proficiency without regretting it because of the lack of appropriate items).

 

This happens because you (Demi and Arda) and the ordinary IR player (giving feedback and suggestions) are BG(2) veterans/experts, knowing every nook and cranny about each enemy's strategy, powers and weaknesses, often installing this modification together with SCS and playing on difficulty higher than Core (which is my reference).

Feedback is useful from any kind of player, but "expert" ones generally provide more useful feedback simply because they have a better grasp of how things work and the system as a whole.

 

The result is that IR makes in the end the game quite a bit more challenging when instead I feel it should be more neutral than this.

I don't know if this statement is true. IR "removes" exploitable or OP items, and hopefully limit the power playing aspect, but it also adds many new "tools" to face different encounters (e.g. anti-demon weapons, anti-mage ones, etc.) and if you consider an entire party of six, I believe the overall level of the equipment is better with IR rather than in vanilla.

 

In the next quote I am going to address my main issue.

 

Just because Charname is a Child of Bhall doesn't mean he has the strenght of an ogre, dexterity of a cat and is built like a rhino.

 

This is exactly my point. Veteran players accept, or rather encourage, a balance shift heavily tipping the odds towards the AI so it sounds simply ludicrous to think of Charname having the same powers of, for example, Sarevok or the other hostile children of Bhaal. It's okay instead to face specific enemies that have instant casting or that have "the strength of an ogre, dexterity of a cat and is built like a rhino". The god-like powers/items in the end are only expected to be used against you. As soon as a vanilla item would take the player anywhere close to it then we scream "it's practically cheating!"

I think you misinterpreted Kreso's statement. I think he was just trying to say that with Revised Armors installed players will be free to enjoy different types of characters (e.g. low DEX heavy armor, mid-high DEX light armors) rather than knowing that the only good character is a 18/18/18 in full plate.

 

Karajah's Armor

Isn't this Leather, and not Studded Leather? It's a bad armor (type) which very few can actually benefit from (say, a ranged specialist with 16 dex or similar, and I'd still have doubts - Leather armors are bad vs missiles)

Yes, leather armor probably is the worst armor type. Its only redeeming aspect is that it's the only armor type without stealth penalties and weapon speed factor penalties, but studded leather generally is a much better pick for lightly armored characters.

 

This is a case similar to staves, which cannot compete with other weapons in terms of base stats (2handed weapon with 1d6 dmg). I purposely accept slightly higher enhancement bonuses to make these rather underwhelming armor/weapon type slightly more appealing.

 

Suryis's Blade

It's OP in BG1.

Probably yes, as it was designed with BG2 in mind. It's not broken like BGEE Stupidifier, but I admit its kinda OP for BG1.

 

The Equalizer

Imo, one of the, if not the best 1-h weapon in game. Huge damage, +4(!) enchacement, with exellent immunities to boot. I don't know what's not to like (apart usability flags). For me, a weapon valid from the moment you forge it to Ascension.

Usability flags should not be there anymore (hotfixed).

[kreso]

IR affecting game difficulty

I really don't know if in its current state IR makes the game harder.

Harder, in a good way however. If for nothing else, than for nerf to dispeling arrows, which are possibly the single best item in BG1 (and ToB, to an extent)

 

- I have heavily nerfed brokenly OP items such as the Shield of Cheese, the Cloak of Cheese and the Staff of the Magi, but all of those nerfed items are still objectively uber powerful.

Cloak of Mirroring is still the best defensive item in game - it effectively doubles your HP.

 

Those who think weapons like Crom Fayer or Carsomyr are too heavily nerfed really don't know what they say imo (Crom Faeyr might actually be more powerful than before imo).

For some reason, I never found Crom that uber in vanilla nor IR. 25 STR is cool, but who needs that anyway with 4 Giant Strenght girdles? (vanilla).

Within IR I find much better options in general for weapons.

 

 

(*) This brings me back to the "IR makes the game harder/easier". Other players may be better entitled than me (or at least less biased) to answer this dilemma, but my opinion is that IR does not affect the difficulty per se, but it can actually make the game "easier" in terms of building characters/parties of any type because with IR a much higher number of items will suit them regardless of player choices (e.g. they can pick almost any class or weapon proficiency without regretting it because of the lack of appropriate items).

What makes IR good is this quote above. You can't go wrong with any weapon spec, they all got remarkable weapons.

 

This is a case similar to staves, which cannot compete with other weapons in terms of base stats (2handed weapon with 1d6 dmg). I purposely accept slightly higher enhancement bonuses to make these rather underwhelming armor/weapon type slightly more appealing.

I like the one with +2 on critical hit. Removing critical hit immunity from headgear will make such weapons yet more appealing - altough, Vorpal Sword > all staves.

 

Suryis's Blade

It's OP in BG1.

Probably yes, as it was designed with BG2 in mind. It's not broken like BGEE Stupidifier, but I admit its kinda OP for BG1.

You get it late in BG1, but Stupidifier is locked in Beregost, available at level 1....FFS. Imagine Celestial Fury in Irenicus dungeon...

[Salk]

IR affecting game difficulty

- Overall, if you make two lists, one for nerfed items, and one for buffed ones, I'm almost sure the list of items which have been improved will be extremely longer than the other one (*)

 

I am talking about how I felt when I played BGT using IR so it's all personal but here's my impressions.

 

Of course IR makes it so that items that before were practically useless are now turned into more valid combat instruments. And if we talk of quantity, yes, I am pretty sure IR improves more items than it nerfs. But this approach is faulty: you can make all clubs in the game moderately better and then just nerf one single item like the Shield of Balduran to immediately make the game harder, no matter having 40 items (clubs) improved on the left column and only one (Shield of Balduran) on the other side of the list.

 

IR makes the game harder just because the player loses the tremendous power of a few items that in the vanilla game were formidable and conversely gains (usually) a minor boost on a wider number of items. But this won't remotely compensate the loss.

 

This brings me back to the "IR makes the game harder/easier". Other players may be better entitled than me (or at least less biased) to answer this dilemma, but my opinion is that IR does not affect the difficulty per se, but it can actually make the game "easier" in terms of building characters/parties of any type because with IR a much higher number of items will suit them regardless of player choices (e.g. they can pick almost any class or weapon proficiency without regretting it because of the lack of appropriate items).

 

What you need to look at is what the end result of all the changes is: more choices, less useless items and (once KR is out) derelict classes will be more appealing. But does this make the game easier? In my opinion, no. The question is: without IR (and KR) could I create a character that would be more powerful than I could ever have with IR and KR installed? My answer is "yes, undoubtedly".

 

Feedback is useful from any kind of player, but "expert" ones generally provide more useful feedback simply because they have a better grasp of how things work and the system as a whole.

 

And those (combat) experts will give you feedback based on what they feel the game should be for them to be challenging. Building a mod based on their vision (which more or less usually matches your own) can only end in making the game more difficult, even without AI enhancing modifications because that's how they want it. See kreso's post above.

 

I don't know if this statement is true. IR "removes" exploitable or OP items, and hopefully limit the power playing aspect, but it also adds many new "tools" to face different encounters (e.g. anti-demon weapons, anti-mage ones, etc.) and if you consider an entire party of six, I believe the overall level of the equipment is better with IR rather than in vanilla.

 

Define better. If you mean to say that the player has generally more alternatives about attractive equipment choices then I would agree. If you mean to say that the player is going to have more chances of surviving the game, I'd surely say no.

[DrAzTiK]

IR makes the game harder just because the player loses the tremendous power of a few items that in the vanilla game were formidable and conversely gains (usually) a minor boost on a wider number of items. But this won't remotely compensate the loss.

 

About OP vanilla items : I think many players didn't use it, even before the first IR release..

And for a long time, SCS offer some components to remove cheesy items and/or make them avaible at the very end of the game.

 

In my experience, it's obviously than IR makes the game easier : AC is lower (full plate/large shield/shield amulet), potions are undispellable, , all old weak items have nice features now and op vanilla items remain nice with IR.

And about cheesy vanilla items : before, we just used to remove them from the game (see SCS component about arrows of dispelling/shield of balduran), but now with IR, we can use these items.(AKA even more strategical choice for the player)

 

And revisited armors is going to advantage players a lot! ( many creatures/monsters don't wear armors and I am sure many players don't use DEX/movement penalites)

 

How can you say that IR make the game harder . I really don't understand.

 

Of course, if your standard gameplay was to always buy Vecna/shield of cheese just after Irenicus's Dunjons, then IR will may make the game harder for you.. (even, I am not sure about it)

 

 

Don't get me wrong,I like the way item revisions handle all items, but I really don't understand how you can affirm it makes the game harder O_o

 

Nevertheless, I would prefer IR to restore the vanilla shield behaviour (+1AC for all shields) and make amulet shield a standard +2 item.

[April]

If you want vanilla shields then don't install the shield component? It's optional.

[Salk]

DrAzTiK,

 

I don't follow your reasoning when you talk about "your standard gameplay". What does that mean?

 

Shield of Balduran, Robe of Vecna, Arrow of Dispelling... All those items are extremely powerful and useful in the vanilla game. So much that people like you feel that "standard gameplay" should be without it. But they are there in the original game for the player to use! Vanilla game is the reference, not your or anybody else's gaming style.

 

The "weak items" that before had no use are made better, yes. But instead of making these items better than the ones I, as player, always used to choose before, IR makes the choice just more difficult by offering now other items that are usually as good, not better. This results in a wider array of gaming styles which is a very good accomplishment, of course. But it does not make the game any easier.

 

You say: "Before we used to remove them [ndr uber poweful items] from the game but now with IR we can use those items."

 

This does not make any sense for two reasons:

 

1) You imply that, in order to evaluate the increase or decrease in difficulty using IR, we should take as base parameter a game where the most powerful items are removed

 

2) IR practically replaces the most powerful items with pale counterparts and in practice it removes them from the game