Unearthed Arcana presents Might & Guile: tweaks and kits for warriors and rogues

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, Greenhorn said:

Hey Doc, your legacy Quickstride doesn't work on Tutu in newest version. Time to revert ( again ) on old one.

That’s literally what I did - copy the code in the last reported working version, and paste it into an ACTION_IF GAME_IS ~tob bgt tutu~ clause. I don’t know how to revert any better than that... 

EDIT - if you describe “doesn’t work” in more detail, maybe I can see what the problem is.

Edited May 10, 2020 by subtledoctor

[Greenhorn]

Yes, of course. It refuses to install, some error in chitin.key possibly . Sorry I can't reproduce it, after one more try I deleted whole package and grabbed 3.8.12 version. That installed without issue and work as intended. Didn't checked other legacy options in 4.5. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Greenhorn

[subtledoctor]

On 5/11/2020 at 4:02 AM, Greenhorn said:

Yes, of course. It refuses to install, some error in chitin.key possibly . Sorry I can't reproduce it, after one more try I deleted whole package and grabbed 3.8.12 version. That installed without issue and work as intended. Didn't checked other legacy options in 4.5. 

Ah!  Install failures I can look into.  (If it was an in-game failure that would be harder, as I have no pre-EE install at the moment.)  Thanks for the heads-up.

[Caedwyr]

I'm working my way through the Readme for this mod and I have a few thoughts that might make this play nicer with other mods/kits/classes and generally be a more elegant integration with the game.

1. The Revised Bard is practically a new base class and Might & Guile already supports having the old-style bard and kits as well as the new Revised one.  I would go further and stake out your own class identity with this and its kits.  This would mean that it is easier to want to use the Revised Bard components and would play nicer with other bard kit mods.  Possible ideas for the base class name include: Archon, Echo, Warlord (I see a lot of similarities in how the abilities work conceptually), Luminary,  Maestro, Spark.  I'd also rename the sub-kits as well to help improve the unique identity and make this fit more elegantly with other kit mods.  There are overlaps with existing kits and other mod added kits that don't really need to be there.  I'm happy to help come up with names/flavour text if you need a hand with any of this. 
2. Further on the Revised Bard. Turning these into a series of kits/class with kits as I suggest above, would also mean that it's easier to just install the Bard Kits for Components 450-490 alongside the Revised Bard (or whatever name you go with) and its kits.  There's some duplication of abilities and conceptual space between kits, but Bioware already walked down that road over two decades ago.  There's at least as much difference between the Revised Bard version of the Gallant and the Gallant Kit for the Bard as there is between the Berserker fighter kit and the Barbarian Class from Bioware.
3. Sword and Fist also includes a Hexblade.  If you aren't completely set on the name, I would suggest using your own name for the kit under Revised Bard
4. Another thought as I work my way through the readme.  You've already added a bunch of multi-class classes/kits with the spellfilcher, loremaster, etc.  Treating the Revised Bard class/kits in a similar manner will end up being a lot more elegant and a better integration with this game and other mods.
5. In your sample install order, it would be helpful to show where you might want to insert Refinements.  There's some text discussion later on in the individual components, but it's a bit tricky to tease out right now.
6. I'd include a description of the Alchemist Kit in the readme, make it an optional subcomponent of the Feat System & HLA component if it needs those resources, or standalone if it does not.  Note that there is another Alchemist Kit out there which is for mages and is more focused around bomb throwing like the Pathfinder class.  For more elegance, since I have your ear and not @semiticgod's at the moment, I'd suggest just using the name "Chemist" for your kit.  It has associations with the Chemist class from Final Fantasy Tactics, which already has the rogue connonations and many of the abilities could be flavoured as being non-magical, or relatively non-magical in a magical world.
7. The Feat System & HLA component ends with a note that it is mutually exclusive with Rogue Rebalancing's Thief Kit revisions and a few other mods.  For your sanity's sake in bug complaints, I'd add a check to skip this component if those other mods are already installed (if you don't do this already). 
8. Also for the Feat System & HLA component, I'd put text up near the top listing what classes/kits this modifies.  It makes it much easier for potential users to figure out what mod incompatibilities/interactions they should be aware of.
9. Revised Archers.  A check to skip this component if other mods like the "Improved Archer" mod is installed would probably be useful.  Also in the documentation, I'd put the information about what kits this is applied to right up near the start in bold text.
10. Components 230 and 235 probably should be organized as subcomponents of a higher level component "Bioware Kit Modifications".  It makes it easier to understand that these are changes to existing Bioware kits.
11. Improved Ranger. Do the changes here apply to all Ranger Kits as well (including modded ones installed before Might & Guile), just the Trueclass Ranger, or just the Trueclass Ranger and Bioware kits?
12. Components 250, 260, 275, and part of 420  are all modifications to "Bioware Kits" and should probably be sorted with Item 9 above.  Note that you may want to include autoskip if it detects Artisan Kitpack - Revised Kensai,
13. Continuing on, I'm realizing that it probably makes sense to have high level components for new kits, which would include the multiclass kits (since my understanding is that the multiclasses are essentially Trueclasses and can have their own kits).  This would include the renamed Revised Bard and its 9 kits, the Alchemist (Chemist) if it can be split off into its own kit, the multiclass kits from Component 220, the Corsair Kit, Marksman Kit, Elven Archer Kit, Halfling Slinger Kit, Mage Hunter Kit, Barbarian Ranger Kit, Sniper Kit, Scout Kit, Jongleur Kit, Gallant Kit, Meistersinger Kit, Loresinger of Milil
14. The Halfling Slinger Kit should probably say "Halfling Slinger Ranger Kit" to follow the pattern of the other added kits.
15. Is the Barbarian Ranger Kit a Ranger Kit, or a Barbarian/Ranger multiclass kit?  If it is a ranger kit, then the ranger should be in lower case to match the other heading styles.
16. The link to the discussion forum at the start of the readme, should probably point here and not the Beamdog forums since you and your posts are no longer on those forums.  (You might want to update the links in your signature here as well!)
17. I'd suggest moving the COMPONENT 48: Armored Casting for Bards from Tome & Blood to this mod or to Scales of Balance, since all the other Bard stuff seems to be here already or it fits in with the other types of tweaks in Scales of Balance.
18. In a larger reoganization approach, you might want to consider combining all the kits which work independent of other subsystems in one mod and stuck all the various subsystems which are applied to other classes in a second mod (Looking at Might & Guile and Tome & Blood right now).  This will hopefully help make install orders simpler (install the subsystem mod first, then the kit mods second which include code to take advantage of any of the subsystems if they are there and needed for the kit).  Ideally, everything would be encapsulated and standalone, but I understand that this is probably a lot of work.

Hopefully some of this feedback is useful.  On the whole, while I'd love to see some of the components split apart and renamed, one of the hopefully easier to do things is reorganize and group the components so all the similar stuff is in one place.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Caedwyr

[subtledoctor]

Okay, that's a lot.    I'll take it under advisement, and I appreciate where you're coming from.  But don't hold your breath for such big changes.

-- On revised bards:

This is awkward, because it is really supposed to entirely replace the idea of bards.  Leaving the vanilla 'bard' class in place is solely meant to be polite to other mods and allow players to give in to inconstant whims ("I want to play a bard like this; now I want to play a bard like that") without having to reinstall.  But to actually make space for the original bard class, and my own added kits for that class, would be conceptually problematic.

The current Revised Bards component is rather amorphous in scope.  It combines a new set of pseudo-magical effects, born of music, with a new approach to arcane spellcasting, flavored by music.  These two discrete systems lead to the general case, in which "bards" are considered to be multiclass wizard kits.  But there are also several non-wizards 'bard-ish' kits - the Herald, the Loresinger, and the Whistler - which can use bardic music, but not bardic spellcasting.  If we left room for the traditional "bard" class, how would it fit?  Traditional 'bards' are supposed masters of music and performance, but they cast wizard spells just like a normal mage, and they have 'bard songs' that work quite differently from my new bard songs.  How to reconcile this?  Well, I could apply these new systems to the old bards; for a brief while I hacked the vanilla bard song button to use my new-style bardic music, and the new bardic spellcasting can work with any arcane caster, including vanilla bards.  But even if I put all the necessary work into that, there is still the issue of their XP advancement, which is frankly stupid.  I could modify that, of course, but that especially would severely affect other mod-added kits in that class.

All told, I don't really see a clearly good way to make these "compatible," conceptually or technically.  I think the modification  works best as a completely replacement of the entire concept of bards; allowing the player to choose in any given game which concept they want to employ for Charname is just a small bonus.

-- On kit names:

1) I had a lot of people shouting to me "make a Hexblade, make a Hexblade!"  There was no Hexblade kit compatible with the EEs at the time.  I resisted for a while, but: 2) then I made the 'Jinxer' kit to take the place of the 2E 'Gypsy' without the ethnic overtones.  I realized that it naturally involved a lot of "hexes," and that a fighter/mage variant might be fun, and IMHO the ability set fits the name "Hexblade" better than the actual PnP Hexblade.  So I used the name and killed two birds with one stone.  Could it use a different name?  Sure, feel free to suggest one, and I'll consider it.  Is that earlier Hexblade kit actually usable on BGEE?  Is there actually a conflict here?

As far as Alchemist: I made some alchemical feats to give thieves some pseudo-magical abilities, and I thought it would make sense to have a kit that focuses on alchemical feats, in the same way as the Swashbuckler focuses on melee-related feats and the Hunter focuses on trap-related feats.  "Alchemist" seems like a pretty natural name for the kit, especially given that "alchemist" implies someone who is not a magic-user, but who focuses purely on chemistry.  Semiticgod's kit 1) is a wizard kit, which strikes me as a kit geared toward spells, not alchemy; and 2) was made later than my kit and duplicated my kit's name.  I feel zero compulsion to rename a kit of mine to make way for some modder who comes along later.  Should I ask Song & Silence to rename its Sharpshooter kit, because I feel MnG's version is manifestly superior?  Of course not. 

-- On the Readme:

Yeah, it needs work, thanks for pointing that stuff out with such specificity!  That's very helpful.

-- On component organization:

As far as categorizing various components under "higher level components," I could use Weidu's GROUP to do this, but that wouldn't really do much, except to enforce ASK_EVERY_COMPONENT which makes installation/uninstallation really annoying.  (I hate that GROUP does that, @Wisp ).  The mod's components have a general order:

• big overhauls and new systems
• tweaks to warriors
• tweaks to rogues
• new warrior kits
• new thief kits
• new bard kits

I don't feel too strong an urge to change that, in the larger sense.  On a more particularized level, the order of components is pretty carefully set.  Various tweaks and systems need to apply to all kits installed beforehand, and some components installed later need to account for earlier parts of the mod.  It would be a ton of work to move things around (I already did it once) and I'm not convinced of a clear-cut benefit.  Plus, changing components' DESIGNATED number and/or install order could create headaches for mod managers like Project Infinity and BWS. 

That's my general thought.  I need to give a bit more thought to your specific suggestions.

[Caedwyr]

I understand your reasoning.  Thanks for the insight into how and why the mod was put together the way it was.  The feedback was intended to be useful in some manner, so feel free to ignore or use it as you see fit.

[subtledoctor]

51 minutes ago, Caedwyr said:

I understand your reasoning.  Thanks for the insight into how and why the mod was put together the way it was.  The feedback was intended to be useful in some manner, so feel free to ignore or use it as you see fit.

It's still useful! All feedback is good feedback.

[Caedwyr]

Some other minor edits and typos.

In the Setup.tra line @21808 the text for Swashbuckling references the swashbuckler kit and not the blade.

Quote

SWASHBUCKLING:
This is a fighting style which focuses on harrying one's opponent while avoiding incoming blows. It provides a 2-point bonus to Armor Class against melee attacks, at the cost of a 1-point penalty to damage and to-hit rolls. Successful strikes cause enemies to suffer a 2-point penalty to thac0 on a failed save vs. Petrification, however, a critical miss may cause the swashbuckler to stumble and fall. This style may be turned on and off at will.

Should probably be

Quote

SWASHBUCKLING:
This is a fighting style which focuses on harrying one's opponent while avoiding incoming blows. It provides a 2-point bonus to Armor Class against melee attacks, at the cost of a 1-point penalty to damage and to-hit rolls. Successful strikes cause enemies to suffer a 2-point penalty to thac0 on a failed save vs. Petrification, however, a critical miss may cause the blade to stumble and fall. This style may be turned on and off at will.

Though you could probably argue that a blade that is swashbuckling could be called a swashbuckler (though this appears to be a copy/paste typo).

[Caedwyr]

Another wording choice.  The setup.tra kit descriptions use the phrase "as a species of X" where X is the main class.  I'd suggest using "kit" or "subclass" instead of "species".

[Caedwyr]

The Agent kit has wording that doesn't fit the pattern.

Instead of "as a species of bard", it says "as part bard".  For parallel presentation of the same information, you probably want to have all of these use parallel wording.

The second row of abilities listed for the Agent kit has the following text:

Quote

- From 6th level, may use a Mind Blank Aura, which causes the Herald's mind to be undetectable by, and unaffected by, psionics or mind-altering magic. A Herald cannot cast spells while this aura is active.

I suspect you want to replace all occurrences of Herald with Agent.

In the bladesinger kit description there is an unclosed parenthesis.

Quote

(These are exclusively melee weapons; the Bladesong is specific to hand-to-hand combat. If a Bladesinger needs to attack from range, <PRO_HESHE> uses magic to do so.

My guess is the parenthesis goes at the end of this aside about the need for magic to attack at range.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Caedwyr

[Caedwyr]

On 1/13/2020 at 11:20 PM, Endarire said:

Is M&G compatible with Epic Thieving?  If so, what's the best install order?

I've gone with using the following components that do not appear to have overlap with Might & Guile

Quote

• Epic Locks
• Epic Traps
• Epic Pickpocketing
• Epic Detect Illusions

These all depend on others for the most part and not on the thief character aside from a simple skill check.

[Caedwyr]

If I did something silly and used the following install order

Quote

Might & Guile v4.5.2.C
    a. Add the Jongleur Kit
    b. Add the Gallant Kit
    c. Add the Meistersinger Kit
    d. Feat System and HLAs
    e. Revised Archers
    f. Revised Bards
    g. Multiclass Kits
    h. Revised Stalker --- How does this interact with the Stalker kit in Faiths & Powers?
    i. Revised Beastmaster --- How does this interact with the Beastmaster kit in Faiths & Powers?
    j. Improved Rangers
    k. Revised Movement Bonuses (Quickstride)
    l. Revised Monk Fists --------------- Look for other monk kits/class mod.  Sword and Fist has one.  Figure out what I want.  Tweaks may  have some stuff too.
    m. Revised Shadowdancer
    n. Add the Corsair fighter kit
    o. Add the Marksman fighter kit
    p. Add the Elven Archer ranger kit --- How does this interact with the Elven Archer kit in Faiths & Powers?
    q. Add the Halfling Slinger ranger kit
    r. Add the Mage Hunter ranger kit  --- How does this interact with the Mage Hunter kit in Faiths & Powers?
    s. Add the Barbarian Ranger Kit --- How does this interact with the Barbarian Ranger kit in Faiths & Powers?
    t. Add the Sniper thief kit
    u. Add the Scout thief kit and revise the swashbuckler

Basically, installing the 450-480 stuff first, then following the normal order.  Would it break anything other than having very similar sounding kit names?  I'd have duplication, but since I've changed all the kit and class names to Noober, that is the least of my worries.

Edit: (Ignore the notes to myself).  I will find those answers, but I've been reading readmes, or in the case of Aion7's kits, digging through forum posts and reading .tp2/.tra files all evening and I have to get to sleep.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Caedwyr
Why post once when you can edit and re-edit, and then re-re-re-edit again?!

[Caedwyr]

I'd like to add, despite me whining upthread about the documentation for this mod, it is one of the best laid out bits of mod documentation in all the various kit/class mods I've been looking at all evening.  Explicitly listing the components and providing information on possible compatibility issues is a huge timesaver and I really appreciate it.  It's easier to criticize/comment when there's something to comment on.

[Endarire]

How compatible is M&G with Epic Thieving[/url]?  What's the proper install order?

Edited May 29, 2020 by Endarire

[Caedwyr]

I have both of those in my install list.  I haven't tested yet, but based on my investigations and questions the following seems pretty safe

1. Epic Thieving installs first

2. Limit yourself to the following components as they do not have any overlap with the Rogue Feat system.

Quote

    Epic Thieving v3.5 https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/74158/mod-epic-thieving-more-benefits-from-high-thieving-skills
        a. Epic Locks
        b. Epic Traps
        c. Epic Pickpocketing
        d. Epic Detect Illusions