SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)

[FixTesteR]

On 4/19/2023 at 6:25 PM, Bartimaeus said:

SCS doesn't let divine casters cast Dispel Magic

Is this spell just blocked from their books? What else can they then cast to dispel? They don't have other spells that arcane casters do.

[Bartimaeus]

7 hours ago, FixTesteR said:

Is this spell just blocked from their books? What else can they then cast to dispel? They don't have other spells that arcane casters do.

It's less "blocked from their books", more "never memorized". They don't have/use anything for dispelling, it's left for mages to do with Remove Magic.

[FixTesteR]

55 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

It's less "blocked from their books", more "never memorized".

Good catch

56 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

They don't have/use anything for dispelling

Would you know why SCS creators decided so?

[Bartimaeus]

4 hours ago, FixTesteR said:

Good catch

Would you know why SCS creators decided so?

 

On 4/19/2023 at 11:25 AM, Bartimaeus said:

Dispel Magic is supposed to target both enemies and friendlies while Remove Magic only targets enemies; the AI (and SCS) are not so foolish as to try to cast Dispel Magic and possibly dispel its own buffs, which is also why SCS doesn't let divine casters cast Dispel Magic (and if the message log says SCS is having its mages cast Dispel Magic, it's actually Remove Magic)

To my knowledge, SCS AI doesn't like to cast a ton of spells where there's a high probability of friendly fire, and it would be pretty egregious for it to consider Dispel Magic: if the caster's Dispel Magic hit themselves, it'd be a 50% chance of dispelling all of their own buffs. Unlike mages, priests don't even usually have multiple castings of most buffs, as many of them are supposed to be longer duration AoE single cast spells (plus they don't get Mirror Image or Stoneskin, where there's obviously going to be a good use case for having multiple memorizations). Dispel Magic's initial projectile follows the target until it hits IIRC, so the player could easily abuse the hell out of that with Dispel Magic. Oh, a priest is attempting to dispel my fighter? I'll have them bum-rush the priest before it hits so that it dispels them too!

Edited April 21, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[FixTesteR]

Right! Sorry to have missed your answer. But here's my confusion: SR makes priest's DM into a RM, too. Which does away with the described abuse. What am I missing here?

[Bartimaeus]

3 hours ago, FixTesteR said:

Right! Sorry to have missed your answer. But here's my confusion: SR makes priest's DM into a RM, too. Which does away with the described abuse. What am I missing here?

That SCS doesn't have special behavior specifically for SR installs to account for Dispel Magic being changed to only affect enemies, contrary to the vanilla behavior. It probably doesn't help that that change only happened within the past few years.

[pochesun]

I just noticed that Dispelling Screen imparts "spell immunity" status in charachter information screen (where all stats are and all). I presume, it happens because Dispelling Screen spell was introduced instead of Spell Immunity spell. Not sure if its important at all  Maybe it should be this way.

Also wanted to ask why Wraithform spell grants +4 bonus to Thac0 while active. I presume because it turns caster into incorporeal form which is akin to invisible (maybe) and every attack from invisibility is performed with 4 bonus to Thac0 and since Wraithform is a state effect it also gives the same "attack from invisibility" state effect? Am i wrong about it ?  

Also, i wanted to ask why Spell Turning was removed from the game by SR? Seems like very fun spell to play with.

Edited April 30, 2023 by pochesun

[Bartimaeus]

17 hours ago, pochesun said:

Also, i wanted to ask why Spell Turning was removed from the game by SR? Seems like very fun spell to play with.

I don't know the official reasoning for it on the part of Demigrvs, but I have a few theories:
1. There's no way to have the "Spell Deflection Blocks AoE Spells" component work with it, I think, leaving the AI with a major gap in their defenses if they choose to memorize this instead of Spell Deflection.
2. The AI doesn't typically have all the tools that the player does: if the AI doesn't have an antimagic spell that can dispel it, its only options are to either avoid the affected character (if it has other targets available!) or to continue to cast magic at them and possibly get themselves blown up. Neither of these are great options.
3. AI will presumably choose to blow themselves up if you aren't using SCS AI.
4. It can cause dumb stuff like instantly exhausting the Spell Turning if two casters both have it running.

17 hours ago, pochesun said:

Also wanted to ask why Wraithform spell grants +4 bonus to Thac0 while active. I presume because it turns caster into incorporeal form which is akin to invisible (maybe) and every attack from invisibility is performed with 4 bonus to Thac0 and since Wraithform is a state effect it also gives the same "attack from invisibility" state effect? Am i wrong about it ?  

A number of spells give that "melee touch attack" +4 THAC0 bonus, and I have to be honest, I'm not really sure what the rationale behind it is exactly, but it's a convenient excuse for making summoned weapons and miscellaneous spells like Wraithform a little more powerful.

On a side-note, I actually didn't know the invisibility state gave a +4 THAC0 bonus. That should really be noted in the description of at least second level Invisibility, where it would seem to be the most relevant.

17 hours ago, pochesun said:

I just noticed that Dispelling Screen imparts "spell immunity" status in charachter information screen (where all stats are and all). I presume, it happens because Dispelling Screen spell was introduced instead of Spell Immunity spell. Not sure if its important at all  Maybe it should be this way.

I thought it used the icon of Spell Immunity but actually said "Dispelling Screen".

Edited May 1, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[pochesun]

6 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I don't know the official reasoning for it on the part of Demigrvs, but I have a few theories:
1. There's no way to have the "Spell Deflection Blocks AoE Spells" component work with it, I think, leaving the AI with a major gap in their defenses if they choose to memorize this instead of Spell Deflection.
2. The AI doesn't typically have all the tools that the player does: if the AI doesn't have an antimagic spell that can dispel it, its only options are to either avoid the affected character (if it has other targets available!) or to continue to cast magic at them and possibly get themselves blown up. Neither of these are great options.
3. AI will presumably choose to blow themselves up if you aren't using SCS AI.
4. It can cause dumb stuff like instantly exhausting the Spell Turning if two casters both have it running.

Its actually one of those very rare cases when i feel SR did worse by removing this spell from the game but your explanation makes sense, especially in regard to points 1 and 2. I wish though some sort of spell that reflects something back to the original caster existed in the game since its a pretty fun interraction. Also Spell turning was actually one more level of defense that a player had to breach when fighting against mages (since both deflection and turning exist in the original game), so now it makes mage fights a bit easier maybe, dunno.

6 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

A number of spells give that "melee touch attack" +4 THAC0 bonus, and I have to be honest, I'm not really sure what the rationale behind it is exactly, but it's a convenient excuse for making summoned weapons and miscellaneous spells like Wraithform a little more powerful.

On a side-note, I actually didn't know the invisibility state gave a +4 THAC0 bonus. That should really be noted in the description of at least second level Invisibility, where it would seem to be the most relevant.

The odd thing to me that Wraithform spell description does not mention any bonuses to Thac0 so i guess it should be mentioned so it wont be misleading  

I guess i framed it poorly also, let me rephrase it: what i meant was that a hidden or invisible creature performs any melee attack that creature receives +4 Thac0 bonus to that attack (only to that attack). Obviously if a creature remains hidden or invisible all other attacks will be performed by that creature with + 4Thac0 bonus also. But, as far as i know, this bonus +4 Thac0 is not a permanent state by any means. SO i assumed since Wraithform kinda (sort of) turns a mage into a creature without any discernable form then this mage can get similar +4 bonus to attack while being in this form - that i can understand. The thing that i failed to understand was why that + 4 bonus to Thac0 is permanent (state like effect). Thats why i think this should be mentioned in description to avoid misunderstandings.

[pochesun]

6 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I thought it used the icon of Spell Immunity but actually said "Dispelling Screen".

Forgot to add. The game uses the same icon: icons of Sepll Immunity (from original game) and Dispelling Screen are identical. Its just that in my current game i have a status (at charachter information page) that says "spell Immunity" instead of "Dispelling screen".

[jmerry]

The status effects on the character screen are the portrait icons, labeled by the icon names. Those names are in statdesc.2da; in coopting the "Spell Immunity" icon, this mod should have updated the corresponding line of that file. But obviously it didn't do so in your case.

8 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

... dumb stuff like instantly exhausting the Spell Turning if two casters both have it running.

Incidentally, patch 2.6 changed this behavior. Now, turning effects can only bounce a spell twice. If a vanilla Elder Orb casts Minor Spell Turning and follows up with a Cause Serious Wounds ray against a PC with the Shield of Balduran equipped, that ray will bounce off the shield back to the beholder, bounce off the MST (exhausting it) back to the PC, and hit the PC for 17 points of magic damage.

[Bartimaeus]

3 hours ago, pochesun said:

The odd thing to me that Wraithform spell description does not mention any bonuses to Thac0 so i guess it should be mentioned so it wont be misleading  

I guess i framed it poorly also, let me rephrase it: what i meant was that a hidden or invisible creature performs any melee attack that creature receives +4 Thac0 bonus to that attack (only to that attack). Obviously if a creature remains hidden or invisible all other attacks will be performed by that creature with + 4Thac0 bonus also. But, as far as i know, this bonus +4 Thac0 is not a permanent state by any means. SO i assumed since Wraithform kinda (sort of) turns a mage into a creature without any discernable form then this mage can get similar +4 bonus to attack while being in this form - that i can understand. The thing that i failed to understand was why that + 4 bonus to Thac0 is permanent (state like effect). Thats why i think this should be mentioned in description to avoid misunderstandings.

Assuming you're using SRR (you are posting in the SRR thread!), it should. Taken straight from the arcane.tra file where descriptions are pulled from during installation:

"When this spell is cast, the wizard and all of their gear become insubstantial. As an incorpreal creature, the caster moves silently and cannot be heard or backstabbed, and is vulnerable only to magical attacks of +1 enchantment or better (or by creatures otherwise able to affect those vulnerable only to magical weapons). Non-damaging spell effects affect the caster normally unless they require corporeal targets to function (e.g. Polymorph Other, Flesh to Stone, Disintegrate, and Implosion) or create a corporeal effect that incorporeal creatures would normally be unaffected by (e.g. Entangle, Grease, and Web).

While in wraith form, the caster also has a base AC of 4 and is immune to the effects of disease and poison, but is unable to cast spells. Any melee attack made while in wraith form is considered a melee touch attack (+4 bonus to THAC0), while projectiles become corporeal as soon as they are fired. The transformation lasts for the duration of the spell or until successfully dispelled, but cannot be used in conjunction with other shapeshifting spells such as Polymorph Self and Shapechange. Multiple castings of this spell and Ghostform are not cumulative."

A number of spells use similar verbiage, e.g. Phantom Blade: "Strength modifiers do not apply to THAC0 or damage, and attacks with the shadow blade are considered to be melee touch attacks (+4 bonus to THAC0)". If it does not mention it, some other mod has overwritten Wraithform's description.

Spell Deflection: Do keep in mind that you can run Minor, normal, and Greater Spell Deflection all at the same time - a Secret Word will only take down one of them. Can't run multiple instances of the same one, though.

3 hours ago, pochesun said:

Forgot to add. The game uses the same icon: icons of Sepll Immunity (from original game) and Dispelling Screen are identical. Its just that in my current game i have a status (at charachter information page) that says "spell Immunity" instead of "Dispelling screen".

I just did a fresh install of SRR on a copy of BG2EE. Not sure what's happened in your game that strings have seemingly gotten overwritten.

1 hour ago, jmerry said:

Incidentally, patch 2.6 changed this behavior. Now, turning effects can only bounce a spell twice. If a vanilla Elder Orb casts Minor Spell Turning and follows up with a Cause Serious Wounds ray against a PC with the Shield of Balduran equipped, that ray will bounce off the shield back to the beholder, bounce off the MST (exhausting it) back to the PC, and hit the PC for 17 points of magic damage.

That's pretty funny. Probably won't make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things for the poor beholders against that silly shield, but...

Edited May 1, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

10 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

AI will presumably choose to blow themselves up if you aren't using SCS AI.

Moreover, with SCS installed (Demi’s preferred target environment when considering things like this) DavidW had scripted casters to avoid having spells turned back at them. Imagine a Finger of Death bounced back by Spell Turning… even a 1st-level Chromatic Orb could be disastrous. (Or on the priest side, consider a bounced Command spell!)

The AI could never handle this as well as a human player, so SCS scripts simply never targeted someone protected by Turning. This made it into the ultimate Spell Trap, or like opcode 100 protection against casters. Which is silly. Just using Deflection puts human and AI scripts on a more level playing field. (SCS will cast spells at a Deflection sometimes, to ‘burn through it’ with brute force rather than dispelling it directly.)

 

[Bartimaeus]

Yeah, the player can have a pile of mages in their party, can choose their spellbook memorizations, and heck, even if they choose wrongly, they can just decide to fix it and try again. The AI, on the other hand, gets what it gets, and if it can't dispel a Spell Turning, welp, what is it gonna do? Spell Turning just puts the AI into really tough spots.

I wouldn't be surprised if the sticking point that made it necessary to get rid of Spell Turning was the AoE Spell Deflection component though. I said it would leave a gap in a mage's defenses earlier, but actually what happens is that nothing is reflected and AoE spells are simply deflected as if you were using a less powerful Spell Deflection instead. A few fireballs and enemies' Spell Turnings are absorbed without ever having reflected anything. Which...may be better than simply letting them get through, probably, but still not ideal.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[pochesun]

@Bartimaeus yeah, i feel kinda stupid for that but i did not scroll down the whole description of Wraithform Spell, oops

Still the bonus Thac0 +4 remains permanent and i assume also applies to projectile attacks (like darst, for instance), though description says "any melee attack..." Is it supposed to be this way?

Regarding status: Last time i fresh installed BG with mods was 2 months ago, maybe something changed since then or some additions were made to mastery version. I only use Tweaks Anthology (nothing relating to spells, just some charachters different locations and maxed HP), SRR, IRR and SCS, nothing else. On my installation its says "Spell Immunity". I dunno, i will check it again when i fresh instlal  the mods again and tell you if it gets fixed.