Text errors and suggestions

[Jazira]

On 9/1/2022 at 11:08 AM, Salk said:

I think what you pointed out has merit, Jazira.

I don't really know what the intention was with "I can think of nothing less appealing." but it does sound and feel completely off. Just changing the "less" with "more" doesn't sound like a good solution to me either though because at the next reply node CHARNAME can firmly dismiss Viconia's proposal and that would be in direct contrast with what the revision you suggested would imply. I think that the best alternative is to introduce a reply which prompts further elaboration from Viconia. It would not really be needed but since CHARNAME needs to say something I believe that would be the less damaging possibility.

Inside the GTU revision for BG2 I have now tentatively changed that string to something quite different:

@27512  = ~What kind of night are we talking about here?~

If someone has a reason/explanation for keeping the original one please intervene.

Thanks.

The next node doesn't shock me, this is a double check, there are several others in the same dialogue (I'm not defending my ground, fact is I don't really care, since I never played and will never play in English).

I feel that the 3 options at this node lack a real positive answer.

@27512  = ~I can think of nothing less appealing.~ //very negative, insulting

@27516  = ~I am not interested in laying with you, Viconia.~ //negative

@27517  = ~All right... I will stay with you, if that is what you wish.~ //neutral positive

We discovered this while correcting the French translation of BG2EE, and @27512 was (incorrectly?) translated like that: "Je ne pourrais rien rêver de plus alléchant." (I couldn't dream of anything more appealing.)

But your proposal could be a solution too. I'm no native speaker, so... can't really tell what is the best.

Another solution could be to edit a bit the Viconia's answer, but I'm no fan of it (I'm truly convinced that the mistake lies in the previous line @27512) :

@27518  = ~Please, I beg you. Let me partake of you, <CHARNAME>, drink of your courage this night. See what a drow female may offer: I shall inflame your passions, your senses... Stay with me.~

Unrelated question, what does GTU mean? Not the first time I hear that acronym here.

On 9/1/2022 at 11:16 AM, Guest Morgoth said:

I don't think the text you are mentioning warrants a revision. You are taunting viconia a bit with that line of dialogue.

Have you checked the context before posting? And by context, I mean the arborescence (tree structure) of the dialogue?

That is usually the answer I got in my circle of collaborators before they check the context. All of them changed their mind afterward.

To me, it sounds way past the little taunt. There is NOTHING LESS appealing! Charname would rather fuck an illithid, a diseased gibberling or even... me instead of Viconia, that's saying something.

In addition, it's really poor writing and design to let the user interpretation decide the meaning of a sentence. Especially in player choice. In tens of thousands line I have proofreaded, I can remember very few occurrences where sarcastic tone (for example) is used in Charname lines, and most of the time, it was specified with a "*sigh*" (for example) inside the line.

14 hours ago, Salk said:

It would be very uncharacteristic of Viconia to completely ignore such a taunt and continue pleading for CHARNAME's company, if that is indeed how we're supposed to interpret that line.

Agreed, I have already proofreaded a lot of Viconia's dialogue, and she's not used to let that kind of stuff pass so easily. But... who knows, afterall, she seems way down in the hole at that moment.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Jazira

[Salk]

Hello again, Jazira.

Yes, a small edit for the 27518 string similar to what you suggest would be helpful if we don't touch string 27512. With your change, Viconia is at least somewhat addressing the (heavy) "taunting" before insisting with her eager plea for not being left alone that night. I still feel like "I can think of nothing less appealing." should make Viconia furious but on the other hand it is conceivable to think of her as truly desperate at that point.

I thought of a perhaps rewrite of my former proposal which would still make the node a bit more balanced:

@27512  = ~It sounds like you're asking for more than simply my company tonight.~ // neutral / inquisitive

@27516  = ~I am not interested in laying with you, Viconia.~ // negative

@27517  = ~All right... I will stay with you, if that is what you wish.~ // neutral / positive

And if the player chooses @27512 then the next reply set sounds consistent with the previous choice:

@27522  = ~I came here to comfort you, not to spend the night. I shall sleep by myself!~

@27529  = ~Viconia... not like this. Not because you are desperate... It isn't right.~

@27524  = ~How could I refuse your wish?~

No matter what solution we go for, there is still a line that needs fixing in the English text. It is string 27530:

@27530 = ~I do.  Come to my arms out of view of prying eyes...place your hand against my darkly trembling heart and I will show you the boundaries of passion as only I can...~

"I do." needs to be removed because this line can be spoken after reply 27524:

GTU means Game Text Update, by the way.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Salk

[Jazira]

I'm surprised that what's following haven't been noticed before.

It is about the djinni Malaaq, the Irenicus' djinni slave in the Plane of Air. You have to find its twin flask in possession of the dryads in order to free him, right at the beginning of BG2.

There are only 3 occurrences of the word "Malaaq" in BG2:EE (@34099, @34701 and @47515), two journal entry and an item description. At no time did he ever mention his name directly to charname, so how could charname know his name?

A simple fix:

@10867  = ~I am bound. What do—who are you? Ah, I see... the master is gone, and you've managed to get yourselves in trouble. My name is Malaaq.~ [OGREM01]

Another fix could have been to change his name and tooltip, but unfortunately @9261 and @9262 are shared between other genies. Or perhaps patch the IDJINNI.CRE file with new entries.

@9261   = ~Genie~
@9262   = ~Genie~

Edited September 26, 2022 by Jazira

[argent77]

[PSTEE] Missing enchantment info in weapon descriptions:

The following weapons are missing enchantment information in their item descriptions:

Acidic Sponge Bolts (BOLT02.ITM, strref 46627): Enchanted: +1
Fiend's Teeth (FTEETH.ITM, strref 63075): Enchanted: +1
Green Steel Dagger (GSDAGGER.ITM, strref 50891): Enchanted: +1
Green Steel Knife (GSKNIFE.ITM, strref 50886): Enchanted: +1
Baatezu Mace (BMACE.ITM, strref 49044): Enchanted: +1

Edited November 1, 2022 by argent77
Added more instances

[Almateria]

@Jazira @Salk I feel like you guys are extremely missing the forest for the trees regarding that Viconia exchange? You have three options, one very negative, one neutral (please, for the love of god, not wanting to have sex with someone desperately crawling into your bed to seek comfort after telling you about their brother is NOT a negative behavior), one positive already. It's not exactly new or outside of Viconia's character to disregard barbs pointed at her when she wants something from you.

The text is unambigouous and perfectly understandable.

On 9/26/2022 at 12:51 AM, Jazira said:

There are only 3 occurrences of the word "Malaaq" in BG2:EE (@34099, @34701 and @47515), two journal entry and an item description. At no time did he ever mention his name directly to charname, so how could charname know his name?

From the item description, duh.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Almateria

[Jazira]

14 hours ago, Almateria said:

@Jazira @Salk I feel like you guys are extremely missing the forest for the trees regarding that Viconia exchange? You have three options, one very negative, one neutral (please, for the love of god, not wanting to have sex with someone desperately crawling into your bed to seek comfort after telling you about their brother is NOT a negative behavior), one positive already. It's not exactly new or outside of Viconia's character to disregard barbs pointed at her when she wants something from you.

The text is unambigouous and perfectly understandable.

Then how do you explain she reacts to the lesser negative one but not the very negative one?

Lesser negative:

@27516  = ~I am not interested in laying with you, Viconia.~

@28057  = ~I... have a need, <CHARNAME>. A need that must be fulfilled... I must feel your strength within me and around me.~

@27525  = ~Do not deny me this, <CHARNAME>... I offer to you all the pleasures that a drow woman may bestow if you but hold me this night.~

Very negative:

@27512  = ~I can think of nothing less appealing.~

@27518  = ~Let me partake of you, <CHARNAME>, drink of your courage this night. See what a drow female may offer: I shall inflame your passions, your senses... Stay with me.~

  

14 hours ago, Almateria said:

From the item description, duh.

I doubt that this is a valid argument, but even if it were, how could Charname write this journal entry before even retrieving said object.

@34099  = ~Freeing the djinni

To retrieve what is in possession of the djinni Malaaq, I must first secure his release by obtaining the twin to the flask he is bound to. He informed me that the flask is kept close to his master... either in his chambers or in the possession of some dryads or golems.~

Edited October 9, 2022 by Jazira

[Almateria]

6 hours ago, Jazira said:

Then how do you explain she reacts to the lesser negative one but not the very negative one?

Lesser negative:

@27516  = ~I am not interested in laying with you, Viconia.~

@28057  = ~I... have a need, <CHARNAME>. A need that must be fulfilled... I must feel your strength within me and around me.~

@27525  = ~Do not deny me this, <CHARNAME>... I offer to you all the pleasures that a drow woman may bestow if you but hold me this night.~

Very negative:

@27512  = ~I can think of nothing less appealing.~

@27518  = ~Let me partake of you, <CHARNAME>, drink of your courage this night. See what a drow female may offer: I shall inflame your passions, your senses... Stay with me.~

Because they convey a different meaning.

27512 = "i do not find you appealing" -> 27518 = "i am actually a very sexy female and maybe i WILL make you find me appealing wink wink"

27516 = "i am not interested in having sexual relationships with you" -> 28057+27525 = "listen, charname, i NEED to fuck, and you are really mean by saying no  "

(this is, by the way, certified freak behavior: if your partner does not respect your boundaries, it's a red flag and you should at least seriously discuss this. A lot of Viconia's romance is EXTREMELY late 90s "what nerds think being with a dommy mommy is like" by any human standard.)

[Almateria]

I think what bears repeating is that Viconia is kinda of a huge bitch, because even despite her personal tribulations, she's written to be as a member of a race whose daily greetings are "fuck you hail spider satan", and you can spend the entire romance saying absurdly mean stuff to her. She's fine with it.

[Salk]

French and Italians have historically always understood nothing about romance.

Almateria certainly is right saying we're missing the forest for the trees.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Salk

[Jazira]

11 hours ago, Salk said:

French and Italians have historically always understood nothing about romance.

Almateria certainly is right saying we're missing the forest for the trees.

 

I doubt that bringing in authoritative arguments about our ethnicity raises the level of the discussion.

I don't pretend to understand a language better than someone for whom it is the native language. And if I come here to ask questions, instead of committing on Github directly, is a proof of my lack of knowledge, or at least certitude regarding this specific subject. Though, I suppose double negative (I can think of nothing less...) is a pain in the ass for every language.

One thing is for sure, though, when translated this line of dialogue seems completely off (to me, Salk and the whole crew behind CorrectfrBG2EE) given the answer Viconia give.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Jazira

[Salk]

4 hours ago, Jazira said:

I doubt that bringing in authoritative arguments about our ethnicity raises the level of the discussion.

It was supposed to be a joke... 

[Almateria]

Joke getting is actually an important part of a translator's job!

 

On 10/12/2022 at 3:31 AM, Jazira said:

One thing is for sure, though, when translated this line of dialogue seems completely off (to me, Salk and the whole crew behind CorrectfrBG2EE) given the answer Viconia give.

I understand, I definitely worked with enough ESL ppl in my life so far to realize that sometimes a dialogue feels off. But in this case, I feel like the reason for the vibe is because the original dialogue... is bad?

It's not incongruent, which is why I don't believe it warrants fixes. It is simply bad. The writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too, and somehow keep the thing where you can insult Viconia on every opportunity because she's a Bad Bitch you can be Mean to, but also, she needs to be horny and desperate for Charname. And it sucks, it's embarassingly trite writing when you look at this from a perspective of a human being in the year of our lord 2022, rather than a fantasy writer in, uh, 1999..

But it's perfectly in line with itself.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Almateria

[jastey]

As an ESL, I second the case that ~I can think of nothing less appealing.~ is not understandable as giving an affirmative response to Viconia. The German translation is "I could think of nothing more pleasant."

If this line is meant to tease but agree to sex, then the official translations obviously skipped any such teasing, making this something English only?

So, this is either something an ESL can't understand, then it's a bad choice of words in a game where clicking on answers lead to different quest paths. Or it is indeed a typo and "less" should / could be changed to "more" without altering the outcome at all.

Usually, if something is meant as teasing, the game indicates it - how would someone be supposed to know this? Unless, of course, this is crystal clear to native speakers.

EDIT: Clear the moment you have to click the answer, not by reading the whole exchange and saying "yes, this reply option can lead to Viconia giving this answer".

[Almateria]

8 hours ago, jastey said:

is not understandable as giving an affirmative response to Viconia

It is not an affirmative response. It is a negatory response, and that means the german translators got it wrong

Edited October 14, 2022 by Almateria

[jastey]

Well, the French ones too, apparently. And Viconia's response is as if the PC said "Hell yeah let's f*".