Witcher... here we go again.

[Domi]

In "every Bio game ever since" you just choose your alignment and are done with it.

 

Huh? Pretty much every game nowadays come with the morality slider instead of the fixed alignment. Your choices ajust your status; hells, you even change your appearance in KOTOR if you are evil. It's true for everything since NWN1 (maybe for NWN1 too, I haven't played that, hate this game). KOTOR and JE has a somewhat similar Altruistic-Selfish thinggie, and NWN2 is shifting you all over the place. In fact so much that a bunch of people yells "Hands off my alignment!!! Give me the options, and I shall chose if I can justify it for my character."

 

So, Torment was definitely something very, very special.

 

I am sorry, but I still didn't see how. When I was looking through it's D-files, it looked exactly the same as any other IE game. The stat-dependent choices, and all that. Anyway, I suppose one must get into it to appreciate it. As for NPCs, if you like them all being weird, you should check out Mask of the Betrayer. It has that sort of weird cast that PS:T had, a hagspawn, an aasimar, a tiefling, a fiend, and something strange entirely. It also will have a really neat setting (well, so does JE!!!). I'll give you a point for not combat heavy, but in JE and NWN2 you can skip a lot of fighting through conversational options as well. I have to say that I do love the combat part of the game to go along with the dialogues, particulary if they are as imaginative as the Keep Siege in NWN2.

 

Actually, I found the evil conversation options in NWN2 to be the very stereotype of evil character = a troll throwing a temper tantrum. Whether the protagonist happened to have high intelligence/wisdom/charisma, or was lawful evil, didn't seem to matter.

Why would anyone expect an obviously evil cleric of a despised and evil deity to save them? Maybe because even if you take those chaotic evil options, you still save the villagers, city citizens, keep inhabitants along the way.

And if you choose the evil ending, they die anyway.

 

Well, I didn't see that much saving everyone quests in NWN2, to be honest. I felt the story-line was much more about the PC herself and her being mixed up with the greater powers, but let's just agree to disagree here.

 

Anyway, once I am done with Bishop's Romance, I will restart my work on a small NWN2 module, that among other things is intended to teach myself to write smart and fun to play evil. If you are still around, I'll welcome your feedback. Well, if 'what if' stories are your cup of tea.

[Guest!]

So, Torment was definitely something very, very special.

 

I am sorry, but I still didn't see how.

The way I pointed out in my 40 lines post.

 

NWN2, I played it up to the end of the first chapter, and it bored me to tears. If things get so much better later I'll probably give it another spin sometime.

[Domi]

Yes, I've read the 40-lines, but like I said, you probably have to live through it to see it. And to live through it you have to play with that particular character... nah.

 

As for NWN2 it depends whom you ask. I personally like Chapter 3 the best, but the beginning of Chapter 2 is quite interesting. Chapter 1 is the weakest, most people do agree there.

[DavidW]

At the risk of being off-topic... I thought NWN2 was cool step-by-step, but when you stood back and looked at the plot, it didn't really hang together. Basically, you do something, and when you've finished, something unrelated happens and now you know what to do next. I don't mind linearity per se but I would prefer the next step to at least usually be something that happens as a result of the last step...

[KIrving]

When I saw the stuff on the Witcher I couldn't help but sigh. Not another predefined character, not another male protagonist. (Hmmm.....lets see...we'll allow some attribute choices maybe, skill choices and dialogue options.....hey....I know....we can describe this game as an RPG!)

 

I'd prefer game developers called these type of games 'Action/Adventure'. I think the RPG description is currently getting overused. It seems to have been dusted off and glued to most FPS and Action hybrids lately. Sorry, I mean they are 'redefining' the genre with their original and creative use of it.

 

(I'm so cynical and bitter about the state of CRPG's I think I better go back into my cave. )

[Domi]

When I saw the stuff on the Witcher I couldn't help but sigh. Not another predefined character, not another male protagonist. (Hmmm.....lets see...we'll allow some attribute choices maybe, skill choices and dialogue options.....hey....I know....we can describe this game as an RPG!)

 

You know, word by word, sigh by sigh my reaction!

 

At the risk of being off-topic... I thought NWN2 was cool step-by-step, but when you stood back and looked at the plot, it didn't really hang together. Basically, you do something, and when you've finished, something unrelated happens and now you know what to do next. I don't mind linearity per se but I would prefer the next step to at least usually be something that happens as a result of the last step...

 

I agree with you to a point, as in some sections actually made sense to me, but certain aspects of the plot when looked back on it just didn't fall into place, the biggest for me was that whole relation between Garius and King of Shadows, and what were the shadow priests? Anyway, it does flow smoothly in parts, then it interrupts, but it is quite playable. Well, to be honest I find it better on the second play through, seeing I started from someone's save in the end of Chapter 1, and due to some littl' modding, males now pay (much) more attention to my PC then to bloody Shandra. So, I can actually ignore Shandra now, instead of spent the whole chapter wanting to murder her.

[berelinde]

(I'm so cynical and bitter about the state of CRPG's I think I better go back into my cave. )

Yay BG1/BG2/IWD/IWD2!

 

Anyway, Domi, when I finally get that computer that will run NWN2, you are simply going to have to clue me in on those mods.

[Gabrielle]

PST = boring.

 

Plus, as mentioned already, you had limited abilities in creating your character.

[BigRob]

Actually, aside from the class and gender issue, I always thought that PS:T gave the ultimate freedom in character creation. Choose your stats, and roleplay however you want. Sure you had a pre-defined backstory (as you have in BG1&2 and NWN2), but none of your own choices invalidate it.

 

 

I personally found NWN2's NPC railroading to be the most restrictive RP element in almost any game I've played (and though they did the same thing in KOTOR1&2, this seemed much more jarring to me). "Oh, Bishop, sure you can come along with us and do some tracking. Sure, I'll put up with your poorly veiled threats and trust you enough not to find another ranger. No, I won't break your skull and leave you in a ditch for threatening to rape one of my friends. Oooh, look, for some reason the guards let you into my stronghold and I can't get you to leave."

 

This, plus the fact that the same thing happens with every single NPC, I found much more annoying than anything I've encountered in an RPG to date. I can see how the male only protagonist thing would cause horrible aggravation (and the less said about collectable cards, the better), but being trapped like that after the game has actually started really ruffled me up.

[Salk]

I might suggest The Sims where the player has a thousand customizations available to choose from. Sex, colour of the hair, of the eyes, shape of the face, kind of clothes to put on, furnish the house the way you like, make your garden look better, ecc. ecc.

 

It's then obviously a great CRPG... ( )

[Simbul]

but certain aspects of the plot when looked back on it just didn't fall into place, the biggest for me was that whole relation between Garius and King of Shadows, and what were the shadow priests?

For myself, the biggest problem with story was how they squeezed Illefarn to it, obviously not knowing almost anything about Faerunian elven culture/history. But that's me, a self-confessed FR history maniac

 

I personally found NWN2's NPC railroading to be the most restrictive RP element in almost any game I've played

Well, not the *most* restricting... But I agree, too. Why can't evil protagonist do with Shandra something similar to what the githyanki wanted to do, I have no idea. And I couldn't believe in *elven* ranger raising a drow, or half-orc, or tiefling as his ward.

 

As for PS:T... I just want to say that to have the most fun playing this game, you should look past the things you don't like in the begging, or in principal, about the game. And then the plot just catches you, and you can't stop playing, because the writing is so good, and the story is so beautiful, the characters so interesting and in-depth. At least, that's how it was for me. Maybe this kind of story isn't for everyone, it's a pity then

[vile fairy]

I thought NWN2 was cool step-by-step, but when you stood back and looked at the plot, it didn't really hang together. Basically, you do something, and when you've finished, something unrelated happens and now you know what to do next. I don't mind linearity per se but I would prefer the next step to at least usually be something that happens as a result of the last step...

 

Which was even more annoying due to the fact that it didn't matter what kind of protagonist you took through the game. A drow priest of Cyric would find the same welcome like an aasimar paladin of Tyr; Hey! You're a Harborman!

 

That made the character generation look more "cosmetic" that anything else.

[Domi]

Well, not the *most* restricting... But I agree, too. Why can't evil protagonist do with Shandra something similar to what the githyanki wanted to do, I have no idea. And I couldn't believe in *elven* ranger raising a drow, or half-orc, or tiefling as his ward.

 

His ward was not just some half-orc, drow or tiefling he found in the forest. She was the daughter of someone who was with him through thick and thin, so he presumably droped racial prejudices in regards to Esmerelle, and in addition both his beloved wife and his long-time comrad died defending this child. So, no, I have no qualms about that part of the background.

 

But on the upside (well, for me) if BG series lended themselves the best to playing with a human, NWN2 imo works the best with an elven protagonist.

 

Now, certain as gentle as possible racial, class and alignment restrictions with the current over-blown beyond any reason state of the 3ED make all sort of sense to me, particulary on separate mods, as opposite to the all-encompassing campaigns. In a campaign like NWN2's I will play the protagonist that I've created, I like and I can justify, and for me that is eons better than having to play "that particular guy" for no real reason whatsoever. For me, I would only apply the restrictions which are absoilutely necessary, and then leave the rest to customization.

 

Again, back to PS:T. I honestly see that game as 85 to 95% gender-independent, so I can't accept that the developers didn't put in that extra mile and extra work to make it playable with a TNO of both genders. Equally, I have no idea why a protagonist couldn't customize his or her appearance because I don't see how blond dreadlocks would have been any different than the dark-blue ones; I don't see how the body being less or more hulky but no less scarred would have changed the story; I don't see how the protagonist having an option of picking a name for him/herself, while in general being reffered to as a "Nameless One" would have crashed the story. In other words, there is nothing in PS:T that prohibits a level of customization; that it wasn't definetly lost me as a customer for them. Not a big loss, perhaps, but, well, they lost me there.

 

I personally found NWN2's NPC railroading to be the most restrictive RP element in almost any game I've played (and though they did the same thing in KOTOR1&2, this seemed much more jarring to me).

 

Obsidian went overboard with NWN2, but it was always present in their games, that desire to make an NPC a 'you can't cut it out' part of the story. It's already in PS:T, with Morte not leaving your side no matter what and you couldn't crash it into dust even if that was the thing you wanted really badly. (I tried, gods be my witness, I really tried).

 

And that is yet another example of the restrictions that allows the authors to 'tell the better story', as any restriction is justified.

[vile fairy]

In a campaign like NWN2's I will play the protagonist that I've created, I like and I can justify, and for me that is eons better than having to play "that particular guy" for no real reason whatsoever. For me, I would only apply the restrictions which are absoilutely necessary, and then leave the rest to customization.

 

The problem is that the NWN2 campaign is tailored for a quite narrow range of protagonists. It is not very difficult to create a protagonist that so obviously doesn't fit the story that the gameplay becomes ridiculous.

 

In PS:T the Nameless One doesn't feel out of character for the story; in NWN2 you can create different protagonists that you can't roleplay.

[Domi]

The problem is that the NWN2 campaign is tailored for a quite narrow range of protagonists.

 

Do not forget that NWN2 is designed not only to play the oiginal campaign, but also to mod, so the amount of stuff in it far exceeds what makes sense for an OC character. I wouldn't say that the scope of the campaign is narrow. There are tons of classes, races and alignments that make perfect RP sense in the OC, and the player has a great freedom to chose something that works both for him/her and the developer. A compromise, as opposite to the developer dictating everything about the character. For all I know, someone might think that an CE drow cleric of Cyric is just what the doctor ordered for the OC. Not you, I understand.

 

In PS:T I felt out of character at the very point of character creation, I was horribly uncomfortable with Morte's dialogue and inability to drop him out of party; then came the flying lady that called me "My love" in the cheesiest dialogue I have seen in any RPG to date and everyone I bumped into was going around elbowing and nuging each-other singing "We all know who you are but not goin' to tell!!! You have to jump through the hoops!" That was it.

 

Your drow cleric of Cyric though is a very complex character, which I feel would be tough to fit in pretty much any story not specifically designed for "drow on the surface", "rebelious drow of the Underdark" character or for Cyric priesthood. An NPC with this background would have been tough to handle, let alone a PC. And because NWN2 has that opportunity to create such a character, who knows, one day there could be a mod that is targeting one of these categories.

 

One of the developers commented only the other day that the diety choice came very late when they had already had the texts finished, so there are no reactions to any deity, good, evil or neutral.