The Sensuous Permission-Free Crossmod Banter Author

[cmorgan]

heh Mel Brooks would love it!

[Wounded_Lion]

My point here is that asking permission (and even better, working with another author) prevents two things:

- inconsistent characterization

- modder vs. modder strife

That statement tells me that you didn't quite get the point CamDawg and others were making.

 

The permission system increases modder vs. modder strife. Ask anyone who has been there.

 

I don't have much time (out the door in 30 min), but I think it unlikely that "permissions" produces more strife than "no permissions". Modder vs. modder conflict will occur regardless of the system chosen. The very concept of permissions is minimization of inter-modder disputes.

 

Let me use a real life illustration. Based on the theory of the chemical equation, it shouldn't matter whether I add acid to water or water to acid. But if I had a dozen chemists telling me that adding water to acid is a bad idea, I would not need to try it myself, and risk being scarred by the experience, to realize that they were probably right. Here you have a dozen modders sharing their experiences with you, all telling you that the reality of the situation falls short of its theoretical expectation, yet you blissfully insist that the reverse is true.

 

I am definitely the kind of person that would have to add water to acid at least once.

 

In regards to the rest, modders out-of-contact is a separate issue, I think. A special-case scenario. That is why I've sidestepped the issue each time it's been mentioned.

 

@cmorgan: I don't have much time right now, but I'd like to come back to some of what you said in the next day or so. Interesting comments all around.

 

aWL

[Nythrun]

I don't know why we have an abnormally high percentage of contention between modders,

 

I tend to blame the Narcissism of Small Differences, myself.

 

At least publicly. Privately I'm convinced we're all just goons.

[Sorrow]

I think it's LA issue rather than BioWARE. Practically, the game is modded, but any mention of KOTOR1 mods is prohibited at the boards and the moderatorss will lock the threads. Hence, KOTOR is the only game I played unmodded. Well, actually JE as well, but that's because I haven't had a chance yet to make my own run through it.

LA? Are these the guys that disallow posting game/movie screenshots in reviews?

[DavidW]

I don't know why we have an abnormally high percentage of contention between modders,

 

I tend to blame the Narcissism of Small Differences, myself.

 

At least publicly. Privately I'm convinced we're all just goons.

 

I forget who it was who said that in academic politics, the passions are so high precisely because the stakes are so small. That probably goes doubly for modding.

[CamDawg]

I forget who it was who said that in academic politics, the passions are so high precisely because the stakes are so small. That probably goes doubly for modding.

I've seen it attributed to Kissinger, but I think it's originally from a Harvard prof (well, a non-Kissinger Harvard prof). It's a quote I like to trot out for modding as well.

[cmorgan]

[offtopic rambling and academic ballyhoo] Never trust anyone from Harvard. It's Oberlin, Yale, Northwestern all the way, baby. (Oh, and I suppose some of those cretins across the pond can allow dispensation for Oxford and Cambridge, being as they have been around awhile. When they talk Old Skool, they mean an entirely different measurement of time. [/offtopic rambling and academic ballyhoo]

[Tameon the Dragoon]

Yes, I'd prefer not to read Xan's banters with bisexual half-kobolds and the like

 

Is it too late for me to fake being insulted by this?

[Kulyok]

It's never too late - after all, that's what the fun is all about. Without these threads, modding(writing, et cetera - name your art) forums would not be the same.

 

Honestly, sometimes I think other modders spend more time thinking of my mods than the players do - and it may well be true of every NPC modder. Which is probably a good thing, if unintended.

[Wounded_Lion]

Over the course of this thread, I've argued primarily via the Law of Utility (arguing against the practical results of accepting jcompton's argument; although I did take one shot at the premise itself). I was ready to surrender/withdraw when a session of philosophical brainstorming produced a new means of attack.

 

I think might be useful to post the link here for the sake of those that are following this particular thread but don't regularly browse G3's forums (and thus might not be aware of the new thread).

 

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=13747

 

Also, I've noticed that most of you haven't replied to the new thread.

 

BEGIN ~Obvious Bait~

SAY ~Should I take your lack of response as surrender to superior logic?~

END // Obvious Bait

 

 

aWL

[Kulyok]

I am surprised nobody mentioned the Little Prince yet.

 

For what the king fundamentally insisted upon was that his authority should be respected. He tolerated no disobedience. He was an absolute monarch. But, because he was a very good man, he made his orders reasonable.

 

"If I ordered a general," he would say, by way of example, "if I ordered a general to change himself into a sea bird, and if the general did not obey me, that would not be the fault of the general. It would be my fault."

 

"May I sit down?" came now a timid inquiry from the little prince.

 

"I order you to do so," the king answered him, and majestically gathered in a fold of his ermine mantle.

 

But the little prince was wondering . . . The planet was tiny. Over what could this king really rule?

 

"Sire," he said to him, "I beg that you will excuse my asking you a question--"

 

"I order you to ask me a question," the king hastened to assure him.

 

"Sire--over what do you rule?"

 

"Over everything," said the king, with magnificent simplicity.

 

"Over everything?"

 

The king made a gesture, which took in his planet, the other planets, and all the stars.

 

"Over all that?" asked the little prince.

 

"Over all that," the king answered.

 

For his rule was not only absolute: it was also universal.

 

"And the stars obey you?"

 

"Certainly they do," the king said. "They obey instantly. I do not permit insubordination."

 

Such power was a thing for the little prince to marvel at. If he had been master of such complete authority, he would have been able to watch the sunset, not forty-four times in one day, but seventy-two, or even a hundred, or even two hundred times, without ever having to move his chair. And because he felt a bit sad as he remembered his little planet which he had forsaken, he plucked up his courage to ask the king a favor:

 

"I should like to see a sunset . . . Do me that kindness . . . Order the sun to set . . ."

 

"If I ordered a general to fly from one flower to another like a butterfly, or to write a tragic drama, or to change himself into a sea bird, and if the general did not carry out the order that he had received, which one of us would be in the wrong?" the king demanded. "The general, or myself?"

 

"You," said the little prince firmly.

 

"Exactly. One must require from each one the duty which each one can perform," the king went on. "Accepted authority rests first of all on reason. If you ordered your people to go and throw themselves into the sea, they would rise up in revolution. I have the right to require obedience because my orders are reasonable."

[berelinde]

In response to obvious bait: Chalk it up to indifference.

 

I see that many grandiose words strung together between a title and a subtitle and rapidly decide I can't be bothered to read it.

[Amaurea]

Aaaaaand, I'll take this opportunity to throw in my non-intellectual response from purely a players perspective.

 

What you (WL) are doing has completely derailed a very good discussion. For a bit there, before you turned the discussion into a pissing contest, it seemed like something might actually get done to solve an ongoing problem.

 

I speak as a player, because that's probably all I'll ever be, and my interests are simple:

 

Crossmod = good.

Removing what has PROVEN (I'll take the word on people who've actually been there on this one) to be an impediment to Crossmod will make for more Crossmod.

More Crossmod = BETTER.

 

Intellectual bickering, size comaprisons, and playing Devil's Advocate = nothing to do with solving Crossmod problems.

[Guest DeepO]

Although I'm just an occasional visitor of these fora, I would like to express my full agreement with Amaurea's post above. Wounded Lion considerably wounded (pun intended) this potentially interesting discussion with his amateurish and completely pseudofilopsychosociological gibberish and probably wetted quite a lot of tissues in the process. He is an obvious troll and should be immediately goblinized preferably by returning original discussion on topic and leaving his ridiculously babyish comments ignored.

P.S.: If he is actually she, I'm taking back that tissue issue.

[cmorgan]

OK, temporarily dropping the philisophical considerations and personalities involved (Yup, I know, impossible; but just so I can baseline this from a practical point of view) the summary so far is:

• There are three "Banter Packs" (non-romantic content between NPCs) currently available for BG2 content: PPG BanterPack, G3 Crossmod, and SHS Extended Banters Project.
  
• PPG Banterpack is a mature stable mod which deals with 10 of the BioWare NPCs. It currently is not accepting submissions and does not currently include any content for newly created NPC interactions. Authorship rights (should any arise for some strange reason) derive from and are are arbitrated by JCompton.
  
• SHS Banters Project is a new community project which any person can contribute to, and deals exclusively with BioWare NPCs. There are little or no authorship rights, as participating in the community project basically is a fun and friendly thing; in cases of dispute, "authorship rights" are arbitrated by K'aeloree.
  
• G3 Crossmod is a mature stable mod which accepts new submissions. It deals with the "silent minority" which is rapidly becoming the "silent majority", Mod - added NPCs, some based on BioWare and some completely new. Authorship rights are restricted to agreement by all authors whose NPC is included in a banter; if one author objects it vetos inclusion.
  
• Some authors (especially in Tutu, where there is no crossmod mod) have opted for mutual inclusion between mods for crossmod content, relying on teamwork and install order to open up Indira/Finch or whatever banters.
  
• There is a community debate on what is fair, appropriate, consistent, and respectful when it comes to adding banters where someone else's authorship has created a new character and the new mod author wants to incude cross-NPC content.
  

 

Still need correction/clarification from admins, and would love an answer to what project is reasonable for me to contribute Aran/Willie Bruce banter, Aran/Saerileth banter, etc. Otherwise, I will end up spending the time on wasted avenues. True Utilitarianism posits that things are there to be appreciated, and if unused they are unappreciated/lesser value. I value those mods. I want to pay tribute to them by engaging with them. I can go bug Lord Ernie and Bri for Taisha content, I can bug berelinde for Gavin/Haldimir, I can bug Domi for Kivan (even though some of these folks have said "go forth with my blessing and mod")... I can't with a whole set of decent NPCs that I enjoy. Whom do I drop these babies on when coding catches up with writing (or vice versa)?