The Sensuous Permission-Free Crossmod Banter Author

[igi]

Nah, it's always been the same: "Here is my NPC idea!"

 

You're too new to remember the TeamBG days, when it was 'here is my TC idea!'

 

"Here is my hackmaster +12 idea".

[cmorgan]

I am popping in to note once again that while I am working for other folks and as a part of other teams, I speak the party line about author content and control.

 

But when I am doing my own stuff, code or writing or whatever, it is fire and forget (RE materials ceased to be my concern once they hit the editor's desk; whatever claimed rights are the "property" and problem of whomever is running that show).

 

I don't have a copyright on any of the ideas; if they were actually strong enough to have potential cash value I would be working freelance and getting paid for it. I do that with both composition and music performance. Hey, we even have a Union . But that is a job, not a hobby.

 

This stuff is all for fun. So I don't think that ownership of an extension of a BioWare NPC should be observed under any circumstances. There could and should be three Kivans, each as different as the authors. And other NPC writers should be able to react to each; Domi's Kivan might be interacted with one way, another another way.

 

While I find no barrier to my creation of an NPC with banter and romance "crossmod" content with "new" NPC additions from outside the BioWare owned properties (say Saerileth, Tashia, and Chloe, perhaps) I would make the distinction that if someone has created a "new" character, they should be afforded the respect of asking - but the practical application of "Mine, mine, mine" is that projects end up languishing when RL, time constraints, and new horizons call modders and authors away. So from a practical standpoint, I support the idea of a community owned project to donate to, because then the code gets fixed and updated and made workable long after the author has moved on. A Community Trust idea is working well in both Banter Pack and Crossmod. It seems that all that is needed is some tinkering with the terms of this particular trust; and if that is not available, then a repening of the Banter Packs for new content would allow a second alternative.

 

(sorry, Grim, I see you reading but I type very, very slowly and make lots of typoes Ttypeos typographical errors. But it is good to see you, and thank you for helping me get started.)

 

Further edit: Y'know, I could have just said "good idea - less 'Mine, Mine, Mine', more 'Ours, Ours, Ours' "

[SConrad]

I never thought I'd ever say this, but I agree with pretty much everyhing JC's said throughout this topic.

 

(As for the SHS/PPG and BGT/Tutu conflicts of the past, I believe we're starting to see a completely new rift/fracture in the community. Funny, that.)

[theacefes]

You should host a Bullshit Free Crossbanter ™ mod at PPG if you want to give weight to your words.

 

In theory the original Banter Pack was always supposed to do this, but it never came to pass, and seeing that I wasn't really doing anything with the concept, Grim started up the CBP.

 

Anyway, on the one hand I don't really think I need to be in the market for a Porsche in order to point out that building one with an enormous multicolored shark fin on the center of the hood would be a terrible idea.

 

On the other hand, there's always the possibility of a sort of Miracle On 34th Street outcome where I get deluged with mail and have no choice but to act. That's not the outcome I'm specifically gunning for, however.

 

I always feel a tad uncomfortable when I see people writing crossmod for my characters. I didn't spend hours on a hobby for people to play and enjoy my mods so that someone else could come along and write crappy dialogue between their own characters and mine.

 

You seemed to be saying in the first two paragraphs above this that as you are designing for pride only, and not for pride-plus-money as Bioware did, you are entitled to greater consideration from your Fellow Modder than you afford to Bioware. I can follow the thread of your reasoning, but I cannot agree with it.

 

If the idea of your work being publicly tinkered with makes you uncomfortable, then don't publicly tinker with the work of others. That people do not appreciate the asymmetry of this position astounds me.

 

 

No, what I'm saying is that I mod for my own pride/progress in creativity/fun of seeing my own creation in the game, and that yes, I feel uncomfortable with someone else trying to write banters for a character I created in the BG setting. However, because I don't own the BG setting and in the end this is all for fun, what makes me comfortable or not doesn't matter. I can feel uneasy till my skin falls off but in the end, again, no one cares because we're all modders messing with the same copyright anyway.

 

I can complain all I like . The point is that it doesn't matter. (But it feels nice to complain anyway.)

[devSin]

¡Jesus Christo! Flow charts! Diagrams! Presentations! ¡Santo Niño!

 

I'm just about floored. So close to time to leave.

 

Um, anyways, carry on. Sorry, Cam.

[theacefes]

Say things did change and CBP did go the "evil overlord" way. Would the current CBP content be filtered through or remain the same? Would it all just be chucked to a separate download and a totally new project started?

 

If this happened this way, of course.

[SConrad]

I can understand--and to a certain point emphatize with modders who want to protect their creations by applying somewhat absurd restrictions by saying "don't do anything to my NPC without my permission!" There are, whether we like it or not, emotional bonds between us and our characters. It's only natural.

 

However, I think most of these modders fail to see that the community itself already is protecting the mod and/or the characters for them.

 

The modding community is, and always has been, something akin to a free market. And free markets, such as this one, all have a tendency to regulate themselves. We recognize good quality, and we recognize bad quality, and we have a way of weeding out the good from the bad.

 

If someone attempted to release an adaptation of Kelsey as a vicious serial rapist with a fondness for blood and gummibears, he's going to run into trouble. Not because JC has said "don't touch Kelsey," but because the community invariably will recognize this for what it is--bad, and totally out of character. The modder will have a hard time gaining any kind of good publicity and being listed in mod recommendations, and an even harder time getting hosting on the respectable forums. The community will either ignore the mod, or come down on it with a sledgehammer. At the same time, JC can sit back and enjoy all the non-headache he didn't get by not placing any restrictions on the character in the first place.

 

If someone's adaptation of my character was good--maybe even better than my own--on the other hand, I'd be the first to stand in line and give a pat on the back. After all, this person has done me nothing but favors, since he's given me publicity and flattered me by devoting his own free time building on my creation. I'd be very happy camper if that came to pass.

 

I think the Fear Of The Modders is mostly unwarranted and is only going to cause them more trouble than it will ever save them from. Spare yourself the grief and anxiety, and do some more modding instead.

[berelinde]

Spare yourself the grief and anxiety, and do some more modding instead.

Quoted for truth. As in "I'm going to print this quote out in 72-point font and laminate it onto my computer desk to look at whenever somebody starts getting on my nerves."

 

I've already encountered instances where the other modder hasn't a clue about the motivations or emotions of one of "my guys," at least how I intended it. It's no big deal. If anything, I'd welcome the chance to say "Hey, you don't like the banter between Gavin and Alassa*? That's cool. I didn't have anything to do with it. By the way, where did they get a rhinoceros in the first place? Please carry on not liking it, with my blessing."

 

Crossmod is easy to spot. It contains two mod NPCs. No one is ever going to mistake it for original game content. If somebody writes a banter with Gavin as a child molester, I have little fear that anyone would think I had anything to do with it.

 

As modders, we all play fast and loose with character interpretations anyway. For example, Domi's banters with Aerie are more charitable than mine, for the most part, because I have a different interpretation of Aerie. Is one of us wrong? No, not really, because her dialogue has formed an impression on us that is different. If somebody comes along and "misinterprets" my mod NPC, all that says is that the person's interpretation of the NPC is probably different from mine.

 

Once the characters leave our imaginations, they take on a life of their own. They interact with the imaginations and experiences of players, and they are viewed throught the filter of player perceptions, each of which is different. I should no more tell someone else how he should interpret the character I wrote than I should tell him what to think.

 

So the upshot of this is that I think JCompton has the right idea. Once the mod is set loose into the wild, it ceases to belong solely to us.

 

 

 

*Random example. Could have been any other, but I figured SimDingO might not mind.

[Kulyok]

I've just been discussing via PM, so I think posting some of it here will work:

 

...

 

So, the bottom line: I'm concerned that CBP rules remain(that it remains an "authorized" mod, the work of NPC authors themselves, with the exception of those authors who chose to "give away" their chars), as I said.

 

As for that theoretical CBP-2 "free for all", well, theoretically the opportunity's been there for years, and it doesn't concern me that much. Naturally, there will be - must be - a disclaimer that such a mod interacts with (NPC) mods A, B, C and D, available at (links), and that authors of the said mods neither participated in it nor authorized such a thing.

 

At the start of my modding escapade, I even considered adding such a pack to Xan, myself, but I didn't, and here's why: I don't want to add credibility to characters I particularly find neither believable nor well-made.

 

Besides, banters written for Kivan(Kivan+Xan) by Domi are frankly better, just like banter ideas and jokes suggested by jcompton, or elaborate dialogues by SisterVigilante.

 

Yes, I'd prefer not to read Xan's banters with bisexual half-kobolds and the like, just like I'd prefer good Xan fanfic to bad. As well, I freely admit that I don't like writing crossmod with people I don't like, and I'd rather there'd be none at all, but, again, shrug - what does it matter? If they're masochists, let them scribe away; I'd rather spend my time writing something I enjoy writing.

[SimDing0]

If someone attempted to release an adaptation of Kelsey as a vicious serial rapist with a fondness for blood and gummibears, he's going to run into trouble. Not because JC has said "don't touch Kelsey," but because the community invariably will recognize this for what it is--bad, and totally out of character.

I'd say this is demonstrably untrue. There are plenty of bad mods which simply won't go away, and it seems far more likely to me that fifteen people will come along a few months later to modernize and bugfix the Kelsey Rapist Mod.

 

Crossmod is easy to spot. It contains two mod NPCs. No one is ever going to mistake it for original game content.

We're talking NPCs here, though. You notice what NPCs you install, but there are plenty of people about who don't have the slightest clue what content comes from UB and Quest Pack. I wouldn't actually be in the slightest bit surprised if somebody tried to mod Besamen without realizing he's not from the original game--I'd be kind of flattered, actually.

 

Could have been any other, but I figured SimDingO might not mind.

I'm extremely protective over Alassa, you know.

[Wounded_Lion]

I just lost a tremendous amount of respect for jcompton and CamDawg.

 

Why do we ask for permission before using or modifying the work of other modders?

 

We respect each other as fellow modders and human beings. NPC mods are not cold, lifeless works of code. They are an artistic expression of their creator(s).

 

Most of you seem willing to sacrifice whatever mutual respect that we have for each other in order to resolve some relatively minor disputes between certain modders. To say it in another way, you are all-too-willing to let a few random dicks screw up a sense of community built over years of being decent to each other.

 

Quite frankly, for the first time ever, you've made me sick at heart.

 

aWL

[DavidW]

I just lost a tremendous amount of respect for jcompton and CamDawg.

 

Why do we ask for permission before using or modifying the work of other modders?

 

We respect each other as fellow modders and human beings. NPC mods are not cold, lifeless works of code. They are an artistic expression of their creator(s).

 

If I understood their argument correctly, its point was that, if that's true for NPC mods, it's also true for the original-game content. So if modding Alassa requires permission from Sim, modding Jaheira requires permission from Gaider et al. We're certainly not in the business of getting the latter, so what's the justification for requiring the former.

 

... sounded fairly convincing to me, but then I write AI, and the day I start treating tactical mods as anything other than "cold,lifeless works of code" is the day I decide I'm taking all this too seriously...

[Wounded_Lion]

If I understood their argument correctly, its point was that, if that's true for NPC mods, it's also true for the original-game content. So if modding Alassa requires permission from Sim, modding Jaheira requires permission from Gaider et al. We're certainly not in the business of getting the latter, so what's the justification for requiring the former.

 

I tend to the opinion that the owners of the copyright have given a sort of implicit consent by choosing not to persue legal action against modding communities.

 

In particular, Gaider has been involved with and demonstrated approval of IE modding (wasn't he the driving force behind Ascension and a consultant for Unfinished Business, or am I mistaken?).

 

Also, how exactly is the "average-Joe modder" supposed to go about getting consent from the developers? Would the developers want 100+ e-mails each month requesting permission to do such-and-such?

 

A single person or small group is generally responsible for a mod. Thus, it is (in general) a relatively simple matter to have respect and seek permission to use or modify such a work.

 

aWL

[Guest EarthquakeDamage]

I tend to the opinion that the owners of the copyright have given a sort of implicit consent by choosing not to persue legal action against modding communities.

 

In particular, Gaider has been involved with and demonstrated approval of IE modding (wasn't he the driving force behind Ascension and a consultant for Unfinished Business, or am I mistaken?).

 

Quick note: Gaider doesn't own the copyright to the Baldur's Gate series.

[Wounded_Lion]

Quick note: Gaider doesn't own the copyright to the Baldur's Gate series.

 

True. But I did not claim such a thing.

 

I was making two seperate but related points.

 

A remark concerning the legal issues involved:

 

The owners of the copyright (presumably Interplay, the parent company of Black Isle studio, if I'm not mistaken) have chosen not to pursue legal action against modding communities.

 

and a remark concerning the artistic/creative issues involved:

 

One of the author/developers (Gaider) seems to have bestowed his blessing on IE modding.

 

Trying to cover both bases, so to speak.

 

aWL

 

EDIT: grammar, spelling