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toxin · January 16, 2016

Two questions before I seriously start to design a possible alternative for these two spells:

1) do we want to keep the HD limits?

2) save, or no save?

1. I never liked HD limits. High levels give you enough advantages as it is (better saves, more HP, more spells, etc). IMHO there's no need to artificially add direct level advantages - you should use your level bonuses yourself wisely to gain them.

2. Save, at some reasonable penalty for a spell at this level (I guess -4?)

@Toxin see my post above, we probably wrote at the same time. Btw, Spell Deflection works against pretty much averything unless you don't like the AoE tweak, but I guess I cannot count on an optional component even if recommended.

Yeah I play without it

Edited January 16, 2016 by toxin

Jarno Mikkola · January 16, 2016

@Jarno Chant 2, The Revenge?

Well a little bit yeah, but it's just a though.

Two questions before I seriously start to design a possible alternative for these two spells:

1) do we want to keep the HD limits?

2) save, or no save?

If it doesn't have a save, be it level 1 or 99 spell, it's far more preferable to have lesser -effect than .. yeah you are pretty much dead now/useless -effect in area spells.

1) Don't really care. ->2

2) Depends on the effect, my version was without any saves, or even need to motion of magic, but if you make the effect like it's now, then it definitely needs a save, dice etc how ever you consider the other effects the best applied.

It could be an unsummon etc at the same time too. You haven't failed really badly, except in the power levels of the summons... :p :p ... yeah, I said that just to show you the tongue again.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Jarno Mikkola

subtledoctor · January 16, 2016

Forgot to say, for the record, I'm in favor of GoW dispersing insects only in a 5' radius - the same radius as the knockback effect. So you could use it for yourself and maybe one persons standing next to you, but most of the party would still be affected. This way Creeping Doom retains some power.

I don't love the idea of GoW being wizard-only, and ZoSA being priest (druid?)-only. Here again, like with Blindness and Obscruing Mist, both spells are distinct and useful and I'd rather just see GoW *added* rather than *replace* the old spell. I think both spells would be particularly appropriate for druids, as they both seem to be within the province of Elemental Air.

But as for what you propose *doing* with ZoSA, I like that it would prevent cloud-based spells for some time, rather than just dispersing them. I suggest a small AoE (~10-15 feet) so party members would have to huddle close to the caster to get the benefit of the Sweet Air - if that's possible to code. (As I think about it, it may not be possible.)

As for Holy Word, I think that

1) HD limits are not a great mechanic in general

2) A save might be okay, but probably at -4 penalty or something - while it was argued that HW should "only be as powerful as other 7th level spells, I'll remind everyone that these are the most powerful spells available to priests, and the game often equates them with higher-level wizard spells (priests get TS at 5th level, Gate at 7th level)

3) The effects should adversely impact everyone, not just casters

4) I'm always in favor of bad effects, save for less-bad effects - instead of bad effects, save for no effect.

kreso · January 16, 2016

But as for what you propose *doing* with ZoSA, I like that it would prevent cloud-based spells for some time, rather than just dispersing them. I suggest a small AoE (~10-15 feet) so party members would have to huddle close to the caster to get the benefit of the Sweet Air - if that's possible to code. (As I think about it, it may not be possible.)

It's possible.

toxin · January 17, 2016

while it was argued that HW should "only be as powerful as other 7th level spells, I'll remind everyone that these are the most powerful spells available to priests, and the game often equates them with higher-level wizard spells

I agree, there is definitely a consistency/balance issue here. Why take Chaos which is wizard lvl 7 if you can take Symbol of Stunning which is lvl8 or indeed Gate which is lvl9? I suspect a bigger refactoring is required to fix this situation.. maybe a weakened Gate spell or an improved Chaos spell.. something to bring them all to about the same power level.

BTW a big factor to consider regarding elixirs of health - my statements about shortage of elixirs may have been exaggerated (I'll admit to being a bit on the cheap side ) but the fact remains that some people don't play with IR (I'm one of them, don't shoot!). I'll go as far as to suggest that SR change some key items/potions to work better with the spell changes, and start with elixirs of health / antidotes - something to counter deafness.

Jarno Mikkola · January 17, 2016

while it was argued that HW should "only be as powerful as other 7th level spells, I'll remind everyone that these are the most powerful spells available to priests, and the game often equates them with higher-level wizard spells

I agree, there is definitely a consistency/balance issue here. Why take Chaos which is wizard lvl 7 if you can take Symbol of Stunning which is lvl8 or indeed Gate which is lvl9? I suspect a bigger refactoring is required to fix this situation.. maybe a weakened Gate spell or an improved Chaos spell.. something to bring them all to about the same power level.

Nope.

See the games original games 9th level mage spell was the "same" level 7 cleric spell, this was due to balancing. There was nothing wrong with that... after all the mage and clerics progressed at a different rates in XP.

Now as it's now, this is more of a balance issue in the Kit Revisions than in Spell Revisions. Due to the face that it's planned to have a same XP table across the class division. But those things can be balanced there, for example the clerics could get more Hit Point while the mages get more levels of spells. More spells per smaller spells etc etcet eetectdctetecetcetc.

toxin · January 17, 2016

See the games original games 9th level mage spell was the "same" level 7 cleric spell, this was due to balancing. There was nothing wrong with that... after all the mage and clerics progressed at a different rates in XP.

My problem is not with clerics getting spells from higher wizard levels, rather with the inconsistency inside the cleric spell levels themselves.

Think of it like this - would you use a 9th level spell slot to have your mage memorize a 7th level spell? Probably not...

geg_Ma3gau · January 17, 2016

GoW for insects and save for Holy word are absolutely required ofc i still want to have the % chance reduced, 50% is way way too imbalanced. 20 to 30% spell failure looks balanced because 20 or 30% to lose a rly important spell is a HUGE deal already. Current deafness is overpowred vs clerics/mages rly .

Btw, tested contagion. i cast 2 contagion at 1 elf with 17 con. They have managed to kill him. The last con i ve seen was 11. then he died. For some reason at one point CHA starts to take hit and since my chars have 3 CHA they die. Ah i see it is supposed to damage CHA thats ok.

Btw mage contagion is diffirent from the cleric contagion and more powerful (with a bigger spell level and effect).

Demi what is your opinion on the "all spells 1 or 0 casting speed" option? Its just an option, it wouldnt harm anyone who would choose to not install it? I want it so much or the mod similar to it.

Edited January 17, 2016 by geg_Ma3gau

Jarno Mikkola · January 17, 2016

... would you use a 9th level spell slot to have your mage memorize a 7th level spell? Probably not...

It totally depends on the spell. Sorcerer with a 9th level Resurrection Spell spell, hell yes.

Don't believe, well I made an divine wizard kit that has spells from all over, but can't learn new ones:

//////////////////////////////Spell sub-orders//////////////////////////////

DEFINE_PATCH_MACRO ~divine_spells_to_level_one~ BEGIN

PATCH_IF ("%SOURCE_SIZE%" > "0x71") BEGIN

READ_LONG 0x64 "abil_off" ELSE 0

READ_SHORT 0x68 "abil_num" ELSE 0

READ_ASCII ("%abil_off%" + 0x04) "bam" (8) // reads the bam filename from ability

WRITE_SHORT 0x1C 1 // sets spell type to Wizard (1)

WRITE_LONG 0x34 1 // sets spell level to 1

WRITE_EVALUATED_ASCII 0x3A "%bam%" #8 // writes the bam filename from abilities to spell icon

FOR ( index = 0 ; index < abil_num ; index = index + 1 ) BEGIN

WRITE_SHORT ("%abil_off%" + 0x02 + (0x28 * "%index%")) 2 // changes ability icon location to spell (2) just incase

END

COPY_EXISTING ~SPPR101.spl~ ~override/IJ#P101.spl~

LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO ~divine_spells_to_level_one~

COPY_EXISTING ~SPPR111.spl~ ~override/IJ#P111.spl~

LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO ~divine_spells_to_level_one~

COPY_EXISTING ~SPPR107.spl~ ~override/IJ#P107.spl~

LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO ~divine_spells_to_level_one~

COPY_EXISTING ~SPPR103.spl~ ~override/IJ#P103.spl~

LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO ~divine_spells_to_level_one~

COPY_EXISTING ~SPWI110.spl~ ~override/IJ#P110.spl~ //not exactly divine but anyways

LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO ~divine_spells_to_level_one~

COPY_EXISTING ~SPWI103.spl~ ~override/IJ#P104.spl~ //not exactly divine but anyways

LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO ~divine_spells_to_level_one~

///////////////

DEFINE_PATCH_MACRO ~divine_spells_to_level_two~ BEGIN

PATCH_IF ("%SOURCE_SIZE%" > "0x71") BEGIN

READ_LONG 0x64 "abil_off" ELSE 0

READ_SHORT 0x68 "abil_num" ELSE 0

READ_ASCII ("%abil_off%" + 0x04) "bam" (8) // reads the bam filename from ability

WRITE_SHORT 0x1C 1 // sets spell type to Wizard (1)

WRITE_LONG 0x34 2 // sets spell level to 2

WRITE_EVALUATED_ASCII 0x3A "%bam%" #8 // writes the bam filename from abilities to spell icon

FOR ( index = 0 ; index < abil_num ; index = index + 1 ) BEGIN

WRITE_SHORT ("%abil_off%" + 0x02 + (0x28 * "%index%")) 2 // changes ability icon location to spell (2) just incase

END

COPY_EXISTING ~SPPR108.spl~ ~override/IJ#P108.spl~