SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[veyn]

Enemy mages would be completely useless without "proper" PFMW - they would be killed almost instantly in every battle. +2 weapons are very abundant in game.

 

Protection from weapons is the main way how enemy mages survive in battle, at least with SCS AI. For player, there are many other ways to keep party mage in safety. So nerfing PFMW will significantly upset the game balance in favour of the player.

 

Besides, I don't really think that having "protection vs. +X" with X increasing per spell level is a particularly interesting mechanic. On one side, that would mean that protection of any particular enemy mage is either significant (when no one in party has good enough weapons) or non-existant (there is zero reason to remove mantle if party's weapons bypass it anyway). On the other side, game doesn't give any indication of what "plus" do enemy weapons have, so there would be no way for player to decide which "mantle level" to use (without metagame knowledge).

 

IMO PFMW should stay as it is. Level 9 Absolute Immunity should give total immunity to damage and status effects, maybe for a longer time too (I think this was already discussed on this forum). Level 7 and 8 mantles should be strictly better than PFMW; if it isn't possible to make them unique enough, they can even be removed completely (not sure whether it is acceptable for SCS).

[Jarno Mikkola]

IMO PFMW should stay as it is.

Question, how do you balance the 6th level spell that gives the same effect as the 9th level spell ? In all the cases it actually matters...

Yeah... see the mages have more than 1 type of protection ability... and your solution just makes the others redundant to what comes to the spell levels ... well unless you wish to protect the Protection spell. Which can be done with any Invisibility spell and a random spell protection spell for the divination spells... which are not meant to be there for that, but for other purposes.

Yes, the game has way too many I am immune to all your efforts type of combinations that rely on the fact that they are supposed to be short duration effects but in fact are totally not when considering the damage they help out to put out.. and up with.

 

You missed the point of why the PfMW should actually allow the normal weapons to get through... it makes the NPC immune to the other touch effects of the magical weapons, they do less damage and all the other effects also matter like stone skins, mirror images, invisibility AC etc ...

Unlike with the Absolute Immunity, in where you don't need to worry about such petty small things as AC.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[Ardanis]

On 6th level we always stuff slots with at least 1-2 PFMW. This means the spell is useful. Do we memorize Mantles or AI as often? I think not, because they're not as useful for their level. Conclusion - PFMW need to be nerfed OR Mantles and AI need to be buffed. The former is not really an option, because it's a staple of enemy wizard AI. At best, we could keep it 3 rounds long and ask David to use higher level protections more often.

 

I'm not really bothered by PFMW including immunity to normal weapons. The only place it matters is aVENGER's scripts, and honestly I don't like the behavior much because I never use normal weapons to bypass PFMW.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I'm not really bothered by PFMW including immunity to normal weapons. The only place it matters is aVENGER's scripts, and honestly I don't like the behavior much because I never use normal weapons to bypass PFMW.

Erhm, it doesn't come with it... but all the creatures that have the NW protection will never use the Mantles EVER ! After all, "it's not logical."

And either of my proposed solution would guarantee that the protection spells would get a new looks and hoops. But ahh well... you can't be reasoned with ...

Edited November 3, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[Talbot]

Probably because they know I'm attached to PnP, where it has always been party-unfriendly. That being said, with a bit of help (via items or spells) you can easily use this spell imo, and SR actually already buffed it by adding a no-save reduced movement rate which can be used to keep some distance while casting spells from afar.

 

As yarpen says, a party-friendly Entangle would be extremely OP in BG1 because you could cast it every single time and have your entire party kite here and there unpunished, rain down arrows or even get close in melee (an entangled opponent with -2 thac0/AC is an even easier prey for Fighter immune to it).

 

Oh it can still be useful, largely due to the above mentioned no save slow effect. Still as compared to similar spells like Web and Grease it comes up short. Unlike Web it can't be used to tie up ranged attackers or casters, and due to its slow casting time and large area of effect it can't be used to block off melee attackers with the same efficacy as Grease (which slows and stuns). Sure you can set up some decent combos with it, but a first level crowd control spell isn't something you should need items or higher level spells to get use out of.

 

I'll grant you that party friendliness may be too strong for a first level spell as it stands; but coupled with an easier saving throw or a lessened duration it would be more balanced. I can't compare offhand but what does the casting time look like compared to similar spells (clouds etc.) ?

 

Your mod has already made this a better and more interesting spell, so I understand tweaking it may not be priority. I'd only like to suggest that the current incarnation struggles to justify its spell slot when it looks like it should be a primary for a druid.

 

 

 

While that was surely true in vanilla, I think that even in the current state SR already made druid's spellbook really great. There can always be room for improvements, but I don't feel like druid's spellbook needs any more love than cleric's one right now. Am I wrong?

 

Don't get me wrong, SR does a lot of favors for druids and makes them a passable class , and the upcoming version builds on this significantly. So no complaints there. A lot of it is how poorly PnP druids translate to a CRPG primarily about combat. Clerics end up doing just about everything better than druids, whether its healing, buffing, or dealing straight caster damage or even tanking. But looking at the proposed changes you're doing a lot to define their role as better damage and field control casters.

 

Afraid they'll always be just a little bit lackluster and in the same boat as rangers and bards who don't come out so well in a tactical combat game.

 

Well, Ranger's Woodland Stride feature does indeed grant immunity to entangle within KR (I'm sure KR's Archer loves this spell), and Druids are kinda destined to get the same ability considering that they share it within PnP.

 

Perfect, that works well enough for me. Quite looking forward to the realization of the IR/KR/SR triumvirate.

 

Strange, after all these years I still would prefer to boot up BGT with fresh mods than play any number of modern games!

[veyn]

how do you balance the 6th level spell that gives the same effect as the 9th level spell ?

Obviously, by making 9th level spell much more powerful; right now Absolute Immunity can't compete with things like time stop / wish / etc.

 

mages have more than 1 type of protection ability

Speaking about enemy mages: Stoneskin won't help vs. elemental damage + it is stripped away quite fast; Mirror Images don't last long too + they can be dispelled by true sight; Invisibility doesn't protect well enough against melee attacks (and is dispelled by anti illusion too). So, enemy mage without PFMW-like buff is as good as dead - he'll always have an improved hasted fighter or two swinging at him. And I've explained in previous post why do I think different levels of PFMW that differ only by +X enchantment is not a good mechanic.

 

On 6th level we always stuff slots with at least 1-2 PFMW. This means the spell is useful.

IMO PFMW is really critical for enemy mages. For party mages I usually find stoneskin + AC buffs + positioning to be enough (except for very late SOA-TOB); in fact, I usually fill my first 6 lvl slots with ImpHaste and ProMagicEnergy. For sorcerers, PFMW is like 4th or so pick.

 

I'm not really bothered by PFMW including immunity to normal weapons. The only place it matters is aVENGER's scripts, and honestly I don't like the behavior much because I never use normal weapons to bypass PFMW.

+1 to all this.

[April]

mages have more than 1 type of protection ability

Speaking about enemy mages: Stoneskin won't help vs. elemental damage + it is stripped away quite fast; Mirror Images don't last long too + they can be dispelled by true sight; Invisibility doesn't protect well enough against melee attacks (and is dispelled by anti illusion too). So, enemy mage without PFMW-like buff is as good as dead - he'll always have an improved hasted fighter or two swinging at him. And I've explained in previous post why do I think different levels of PFMW that differ only by +X enchantment is not a good mechanic.

 

And a mage with stoneskin and mirror image without PFMW is still a better tank than a fighter, the supposed tank class. If he's got two improved hasted fighters hitting him then it's retarded if he's immortal IMO and he's got a ton of escape tools anyway. Shadow Door anyone? Mislead? Minor spell trigger invisibility + mirror image? I seriously don't see the need for PFMW in it's current incarnation in the game. Change absolute immunity to work like PFMW+PFNW and high level mages should still be incredibly difficult to kill.

 

Also, with the projected nerf to improved haste that's coming fighters will get worse at breaking stoneskins anyway.

[DrAzTiK]

I second Veyn at 213.38%.

 

I rarely use PFMW for my own mages because of course they don't fight very ofen at first line.. Stoneskin/mirror Image is enought 90% of time.

 

Ok, for multiclass fighter/mage, PFMW is quite interessing but not broken at all considering :

 

- stoneskin/mirror image remain Ok most of the time

 

- It's right that SCS AI don't switch to non magical weapons but SCS enemy will try to hit another character. (better behavior than switching to a non magical weapon Imo)

 

- 6 slots are not so aboundant for fighter/mages

 

Please don't make PfMW last only 3 rounds, it would be awfull. I have already tested this and it advantages the player a lot.

 

PfmW have already a good weakness : the non protection from normal weapons.

if you equip your 6 characters with ranged weapons and non magical ammunitions, mages under PFMW will not last longer.

 

Of course liches/vampires are immune to normal weapons, but hey, that's why the have signed..

 

I don't really think that having "protection vs. +X" with X increasing per spell level is a particularly interesting mechanic

 

Obviously, we really don't need that.

[Jarno Mikkola]

OK, so I have been -not not really, but I can pretend ^{after which there's maniacal laughter}- persuaded to give up the no PfMW effects on the Mantle spells, I'll give you that, only with a good leeway with an oversite of other things. And yes, I am aware of the consequences... such as it will take various spell changes to allow this to happen. And the SCS need to be re-optimized.

 

- First we make the Breach spell an area of effect spell, 1 feet is all we need. And the target of course needs to be changed to area(=4, or "dead actor" according to a DLTCEP version I have).

- Second of all, we need to change the PfMW worse but still ensuring it's protection of the caster, so we allow it to cover all the enchantment levels, but this involves the movement speed factor of the caster, the spell should effectively entangle the caster where it stands, and immunity to haste spells for obvious reasons. Enemy protection rings or not, this will allow the party to run away if so is desired. Also making the Breach area of effect will allow the PfMW to be removed at leisure of the caster, as long as the mage is busy with other targets.

- Third, we make two more Breach -like spells, but with added area of effect(instead of the 1 feet; 10 feet, and 30 feet) and spell power level as the levels rise, yes, so a level 6 and a level 7 spells. Or we could mutate the present spell, but I would vote for new spells as they won't exactly match the old.

- Forth, we remove the Globes of Invulnerability spells.

- Fifth, we add in a secondary effect for haste spells that allows the character move at +2 rate at a few instances. Notice the plural(well, the Improved could be +4 too).

- Sixth, the Mantle spell protects from all the Weapons damage and effects, we also add in the Globe of Invulnerability effects to it making him immune to all spells of level 4 and below with a few exceptions, well except we allow the caster a minute movement rate, say a 3(if the normal is 9). And the Hastes secondary effect adds to that. The Invisibility spell works as normal, as well as the stone skin, armor etc.

- Seventh, The Improved Mantle(8th level spell) is similar to the previous, but it takes the Improved Globe of Invulnerability(6th level spell immunity), without the movement penalty, well except this time he is immune to Haste/slow -effects. And it's protected from the original Breach spell. So it's like the Absolute immunity, but a lesser variant.

- Eight, the Absolute immunity stays almost as is.

- Ninth, we set up the Spell Strike as an area of effect spell and it strikes multiple times the same area, say 3 times in 3 seconds.

 

Hmm, I am sure I forgot something.

Hmm, it could be that we should allow the PfMW to last longer... well at least longer than 3 rounds. That's with the movement penalty(unmovable fact).

Ouh, the spells effect looks exactly like the original Globe of Invulnerability... the dragons need to use their own variety, which involves a larger globe animation. Yes, that's a large thing to ask... but we should see if the 9 other points can be meant first. Yes, I am open to suggestions.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[DavidW]

I am not in a position to alter the memorization choices of SCS mages as regards defensive spells in response to SR, because I need the same set of choices to work on SR and vanilla installs. Ultimately SCS is and will continue to be written for the vanilla spell system first and foremost. Over the years I have gone quite a long way to also allow for SR, but going this far is more work than I'm willing to do.

 

(Edited to tone down excessive exasperation!)

Edited November 5, 2013 by DavidW

[kreso]

................

PfMW with Entangle & AoE Breach?

[Jarno Mikkola]

I understand your worry DavidW ... which is why we could see alternative way to make the same spells still usable(the Globes) in the same situations, but it would have different effect. Which is why the last edit had the "I am open to suggestions."

(Edited to tone down excessive exasperation!)

Hmm, hihihi, didn't see that, wish I had actually had ... no you can't hurt me. And I think my idea has merit.

 

PfMW with Entangle & AoE Breach?

Yeah, it will remove the ruinous power of the Invisibility spell coupled with the PfMW being the ultimate protection against everything else than the 9th level Breach... erhm, Spell Strike(when it comes to the Abjuration school of magic). Or to Divination school as I got a 5th level protection for just that instance...

I'll explain this a little further from where I am coming from, the current system is asking the 17th level sorcerer to sacrifice the one 9th level spell slot he has to dispel spells with levels 5, 6, 7, if the combination is properly build to remove any of them, or it will ask the player to have more than 1 magic master, the combination of spells can be done with a proper prebuff script, without which the enemy mage is as good as dead as he is practically defenseless, and with it he is way too overpowered considering the player is always way too many levels behind, as the game was build to not to use those prebuffs.

 

Hmm, we could make the current Globe of Invulnerability to be a AC set to 0 effect and a Save throws set to 1 effect... or even -5 at high levels(30-50) for both, this way the caster is quite invulnerable for the usual killers except the critical hits etc.PS, this is why I hate spells that have saving throws that go to minuses, as 1 should be the critical miss/hit thingy.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[DavidW]

(Edited to tone down excessive exasperation!)

Hmm, hihihi, didn't see that, wish I had actually had ... no you can't hurt me. And I think my idea has merit.

I think I just said "for the 34th time" or something. I've made this point lots of times before - but that's inevitable given the medium, and I wasn't actually irritated and didn't want to convey that I was. (I am capable of getting actually annoyed in a forum discussion and don't mind saying so when I am, but I wouldn't want to suggest I was when I wasn't!)

[Ardanis]

I am not in a position to alter the memorization choices of SCS mages as regards defensive spells in response to SR, because I need the same set of choices to work on SR and vanilla installs. Ultimately SCS is and will continue to be written for the vanilla spell system first and foremost. Over the years I have gone quite a long way to also allow for SR, but going this far is more work than I'm willing to do.

 

(Edited to tone down excessive exasperation!)

I think a simple algorithm would be able to build a defensive spell list based on the argument input, i.e. spell - level - main effect.

That said, I believe SCS uses Mantles often enough to stick with the assumption it's installed on vanilla, even if Mantles have been changed by SR.

[Karnor]

Personally I think that PfMW is overpowered compared to mantle/improved mantle/absolute immunity. My preference would be to make PfMW only grant immunity to up to +2 magic weapons.

 

However, I realise that this would cause some serious problems for SCS (and indeed enemy mages in general) so I suggest an alternative:

 

PfMW grants immunity to all magical weapons and can be breached or dispelled (same as right now)

Mantle grants immunity to all magical & non-magical weapons and can be breached or dispelled

Improved Mantle grants immunity to all magical & non-magical weapons and can be dispelled but not breached.

Absolute Immunity grants immunity to all magical & non-magical weapons but cannot be breached or dispelled.

 

All versions would have a duration of 4 rounds. And there's a clear progression in usefulness as the spell level increases. By the time it gets to Absolute Immunity, there's basically no way of getting rid of it (it is a 9th level spell after all!)

 

 

I also have a comment on Imprisonment. I'd like to see a save added to this, but probably with a hefty penalty. Say -6 to -10.