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DavidW

Version 24(BETA) of Sword Coast Stratagems released

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I agree that Barkskin in current SR version has becom one of the better spell, definitely the best druid/priest second level spell. I used it regularly in Ascension battles. I wouldn´t say that it must be nerfed but I would probably consider it.

And yes it is possible to reach very low AC around -20 or better if you stack the best armor, shield, Shield Amulet, Ring of Gaxx, Barkskin, Defensive Harmony etc. Still the tougher enemies in ToB will hit you regularly and often they have other means to damage you. Generally I think that items which give AC bonus and can be worn with magical armors/rings/cloaks are quite powerfull and I would be careful with them.

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My last bug reports for v24:

 

Some creatures were left with vanilla game spellbooks and scripts, rakshasa rukhs for instance (they're not a mage class or multiclass in vanilla... might this have something to do with it?). Also Irenicus in Hell has original spellbook (ditto, think he was without a spellcasting class).

 

Some creatures have their THAC0 made much worse with the SCS macro to correct creature THAC0's to class, Mellissan is a cleric mage for instance and her base THAC0 goes from -7 to 6.

 

The Twisted Rune: Revanek doesn't have any proficiencies in the weapon's he's assigned (by default the fighter proficiency component is installed before the minor encounters component), the beholder is supposed to be an elder orb but doesn't get a spellbook, only initial prebuffs and triggers/sequencers (not sure if that's a bug or really needs fixing, I think the Rune is hard enough unless you're using exploits).

 

This isn't an SCS bug, but the G3 fixpack (not sure which version) makes minor spell turning useless by changing it to reflect only spell levels 1-4, (spells like breach, PW:Silence go straight through...), minor spell deflection still blocks levels 1-7. I didn't actually notice this in my games because your enemies are scripted not to cast at spell turning and I always used spell thrust against MST, but it does open up potential exploits.

Edited by polytope

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The best armor in BG1 is aquired in the very end - Tamoko's Full Plate +1. It doesn't get any better than that within IR (I allow for 1 +x ring to be worn with enchanted armor). Large shields are indeed much better (and they should be) however THAC0 in BG1 is generally pathetic - you see fights going on and on where everybody keeps missing their target constantly (or until a mage blasts them), so the trade-off is imo fine. You essentialy get an uber-ac character which has trouble hitting anything unless heavily buffed.

Using Large Shield on levels 1-3 usually ends in disasters - you can't hit anything with decent armor and will still get hit for 5% of time.

Shield Amulet, Ankheg Plate, +1 Large shield, magical helemet, +2 ring or any similar combination (add girdle of slashing/blunt/piercing) do keep you quite safe from everything excluding Drizzt and Sarevok - and even they will miss very often. Barkskin/def.harmony on top allows for about -17 or so, with extra modifiers vs specific. Blades can hit the cap if they want (nothing to do with IR)

Arrows never hit such a character, apart criticals, but it has nothing to do with IR as well (tested).

 

I disagree a little bit about IR large shields : trade +2 AC for -2thac0 is very interressing, even at low level. Ok your fighter will may hit 5% of time but he will draw attention of all enemy if you micro him a little bit and all enemy will also hit him 5% of time (more or less) while your archers/ long range melee fighter will make easily insane damage.

 

Even in BG1, as soon as you have some decent equipement/mastery in weapons, -2thac0 is not a big deal while +2AC still remain very nice.

 

I personally don't like too much this IR feature about large shields considering a human player can take advantage of a low AC more than the AI. Imo the bonus to ranged weapons is enough to make lage shield appealing.

 

 

I end up BG1 with Kagain and Viconia having both -10 AC. (standard AC, I can lower more with buff). Not sure if it would have been possible in vanilla but it still looks acceptable.

Armor plate Dexterity penaly is not a big deal with kagain (12dex) and Viconia use Angkheg Armor.

 

 

Maybe it could be interressing to make Shield amulet a "standard" magical item (+2AC and saving throw) and not allow to equip it with another ring/cloak+1/+2. Currently, equip yourself with both shield amulet and a Ring+2 is quite powerfull and allow to reach some AC that you would never reach in vanilla.

 

 

The last point is about IR potion of defense : quite powerfull. +4AC, last 5turns and undispellable.. I also can use and stack with potion of unvulnerability for +2 AC. = +6AC undispellable.

==> not sure, It would be fine if potions used to be expensive and rare but it's not always the case. What others players think about these 2 potions?

 

 

 

Sorry about this off SCS topic..

 

BTW, some observations about SCS :

- Semaj use his prebuff routine it I delete lines from his script making him to teleport near the team. (silly behaviour if you ask me). It makes the fight really harder..

- Semaj cast melf meteor as prebuff but only got 2. (checked with CTRL+D). I remember it happens already in the previous SCS version. Imo spells should be cast taking acount of the character level.

Edited by DrAzTiK

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Edit : About semaj : He also doesn't cast all his summons spells. (and minor spell turning). Maybe his script (DW=1CON6.BSC) is a low level mage script ?

Edited by DrAzTiK

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Edit : About semaj : He also doesn't cast all his summons spells. (and minor spell turning). Maybe his script (DW=1CON6.BSC) is a low level mage script ?

Why do you think DW#1CON6 is a low level script?

Afaik, in my last run he used PfMW and Breach. He used some kind of spell protection (can't remember which exactly, could be Globe or similar), has a Contingency, and is under Stoneskin.

 

I disagree a little bit about IR large shields : trade +2 AC for -2thac0 is very interressing, even at low level

Even in BG1, as soon as you have some decent equipement/mastery in weapons, -2thac0 is not a big deal while +2AC still remain very nice.

 

I personally don't like too much this IR feature about large shields considering a human player can take advantage of a low AC more than the AI. Imo the bonus to ranged weapons is enough to make lage shield appealing.

It has it's uses, but I wouldn't reccomend it. Having AC of -4 or -6 early on is "invulnerability mode" for regular mobs - creatures like gnolls, hobgoblins and similar will only hit on critical, so it's better to kill them off quickly and sacrifice 2 AC points which are irrelevant.

 

 

I end up BG1 with Kagain and Viconia having both -10 AC. (standard AC, I can lower more with buff). Not sure if it would have been possible in vanilla but it still looks acceptable.

Coran (20 starting dex) can get to -10 I think.

 

The last point is about IR potion of defense : quite powerfull. +4AC, last 5turns and undispellable.. I also can use and stack with potion of unvulnerability for +2 AC. = +6AC undispellable.

==> not sure, It would be fine if potions used to be expensive and rare but it's not always the case. What others players think about these 2 potions?

AI uses them as well, so they're fine I guess. Invulnerability is 1 turn only. Besides, imo it's relatively pointless to buff AC to extremes - you can always run away. You won't die to arrows or swords, you'll die from disables and fireballs.

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@DavidW, sorry for the off-topic, I thought we were on this topic. Feel free to move our discussion there. :)

 

What you might consider is reverting back to "old" barkskin - to set AC (starts at 6, ends at 1) instead of +x to AC. What I had in mind is "druid version of Spirit Armor". For higher levels, you might assign a small(5) elemental protection as well (as opossed to Spirit Armor's + vs spell). It would be of great use for buffing thieves/rangers/druids etc. and you can keep it's fast progression as well.
I'm not convinced that setting AC is good to buff characters which can easily get the same or better AC from armors. The only reason wizard's armor spells are not so bad (but still nothing to write home about imo) is that mages cannot wear armor at all, and thus even relatively mediocre AC values are a big improvement for them.

 

It does seem the general consensus is that Barkskin is slightly too good (though ironically a player recently complained about me putting an earlier cap on it), but quoting yourself it may just be a "too much too soon" issue, and the silly super fast xp progression of druids within BG1 doesn't help either.

 

Overall we might try something of the following:

1) slower AC progression (e.g. only +2 AC within BG1 or at least no more than +3 at the very end)

2) shorter duration (a shorter duration would also make it harder to spam the spell on the entire party)

3) lower AC cap

4) make it self only

I can easily be persuaded to do 1) and/or 2) but I'm less sure of 3) and 4). I already lowered the AC cap from 3E +5 to +4, and less than that would make the spell very unappealing in the later stages of BG2 imo (D&D Next is making it capped at +2 AC, but that's because they finally had the good idea of making "thac0/bab" progression extremely slower for all classes). Regarding 4), I actually feel like it would be a godsend balance-wise, but every edition of D&D has allowed this spell to be cast on others.

 

I personally don't like too much this IR feature about large shields considering a human player can take advantage of a low AC more than the AI. Imo the bonus to ranged weapons is enough to make lage shield appealing.
I already "nerfed" them compared to PnP, where they grant 4 AC instead of 3. If I lower it even more than we have two possible outcomes:

a) no thac0 penalty (as per vanilla) -> large shields are superior to medium ones in every possible way

b) thac0 penalty remains -> large shields become inferior to medium shields

While you might be fine with a), I want each option to have pros and cons.

 

Maybe it could be interressing to make Shield amulet a "standard" magical item (+2AC and saving throw) and not allow to equip it with another ring/cloak+1/+2. Currently, equip yourself with both shield amulet and a Ring+2 is quite powerfull and allow to reach some AC that you would never reach in vanilla.
I do thought the same thing (even the icon itself is almost identical to the Amulet of Protection one), but it would cheapen its uniqueness, wouldn't it? This amulet is really fine within BG2 imo, but I admit that it looks too good for BG1.

 

The last point is about IR potion of defense : quite powerfull. +4AC, last 5 turns and undispellable.. I also can use and stack with potion of unvulnerability for +2 AC. = +6AC undispellable.

==> not sure, It would be fine if potions used to be expensive and rare but it's not always the case. What others players think about these 2 potions?

Potions are supposed to be somewhat expensive yes, if they are too cheap I guess it's because Store Revisions currently doesn't handle BG1 shops. That being said I'm open to discuss them. For example I do suggested to make Potion of Defense not stack with Barkskin (I prepared a conceptual reason for that by making the former an "iron skin" effect). Edited by Demivrgvs

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Edit : About semaj : He also doesn't cast all his summons spells. (and minor spell turning). Maybe his script (DW=1CON6.BSC) is a low level mage script ?

 

View PostDavidW, on 16 October 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Why do you think DW#1CON6 is a low level script?

 

Afaik, in my last run he used PfMW and Breach. He used some kind of spell protection (can't remember which exactly, could be Globe or similar), has a Contingency, and is under Stoneskin.

 

 

In my game, he also cast PFMW, breach ,globe minor of invulnerabiliy, stoneskin and contengency (prebuff if I delete the stupid lines making him teleport at the center of the map) but doesn't cast SPWI520,504,624 (summun spells) and minor spell turning.

 

 

Why do you think DW#1CON6 is a low level script?

 

My sixth sense :) But I was wrong considering I just found the spells I mentioned before in the Semaj script.

 

I personally don't like too much this IR feature about large shields considering a human player can take advantage of a low AC more than the AI. Imo the bonus to ranged weapons is enough to make lage shield appealing.

I already "nerfed" them compared to PnP, where they grant 4 AC instead of 3. If I lower it even more than we have two possible outcomes:

a) no thac0 penalty (as per vanilla) -> large shields are superior to medium ones in every possible way

b) thac0 penalty remains -> large shields become inferior to medium shields

While you might be fine with a), I want each option to have pros and cons..

 

What I wanted to mean about shieds it that I prefer how vanilla handle it. (+1AC to all shields).

What you have made for medium and large shield is to improve the AC in exchange of a thac0 penality.

Imho, it looks balanced on paper but as I said before, a human player can take advantage of a low AC way better than AI.

I mean the AI doesn't handle very well the kind of fight where you just send a warrior with a insane low AC in the middle of the fight while your 5 others characters have fun with ranged weapons.

 

And I think even DavidW cannot manage this with some god scripts considering enemy will may not even have your 5 archers in sigh most of the time. Futhermore you would still be able to hit and run a little bit an enemy trying to reach your 5 archers after he consider the fact that hit you ACtank only 5% of time looks to be useless.

 

Yes, Large shield could be superior to medium shield in almost every possible way ( in vanilla, it's just +1 to missile weapons) but you could add some class restriction for exemple. (usable only by pure fighter and clerc)

 

 

I do thought the same thing (even the icon itself is almost identical to the Amulet of Protection one), but it would cheapen its uniqueness, wouldn't it? This amulet is really fine within BG2 imo, but I admit that it looks too good for BG1.

 

No offense, you know I love IR but IR shield amulet is not so unique. it 's like a standard +2 ring of protection (without +2 saves bonus)that you can wield with another Ring of protection +2.

 

Even in BG2/ToB, my feeling it that we can reach a little bit too much low AC with IR. Remember that 90% of BG enemy do have a crap thac0. (but too bad the 10% remaining have some gods thac0)

Edited by DrAzTiK

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May be a crazy idea, but why not remove AC bonuses from shields alltogether and let them apply a miss chance (or a chance to block hits, more accurately)?

That way, AC doesn't get too good even with buffs, and shields keep their value for throughout the game. :D It doesn't need to be a big chance (5, 10, 15, 20 for bucker, small, med, large respectfully, +x for some unique specimens).

As for class restrictions, KR deals with that.

Anyways, this is much off-topic for SCSv24.

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You seem to forget that IR's heavy armor incurs DEX penalty -> AC penalty, and a shield merely compensates it. You certainly don't have to install that component, but it is a part of the mod's core design and therefore it should count regardless of its presence in one's game.

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Damn, you really like to swear about these heavy armor DEX penalty but except for a few cheated characters, most warriors/priest eligible for a heavy armor/shield set have already some low Dex. :)

 

Edit : but I do like the DEX/movement speed penalities because it makes light armor appealing for some warriors who don't want to use a shield/go for insane low AC,

Edited by DrAzTiK

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Crash in Centeol's Lair seems to be caused by something in the container there. Clearing the container via NI fixed the crash, but I lost the sword.

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Crash in Centeol's Lair seems to be caused by something in the container there. Clearing the container via NI fixed the crash, but I lost the sword.

Those area crashes in general are caused by a lowlevel bug in the function library I use; fixed for v25.

Why do you think DW#1CON6 is a low level script?

 

My sixth sense :) But I was wrong considering I just found the spells I mentioned before in the Semaj script.

 

As a point of interest, the syntax is:

Dw# - prefix

1/2: BG1 or BG2

CON/ENC/FMG... : the type of Mage, in this case Conjurer

The last number: the highest level of spells used (or L for a lich)

 

 

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As a point of interest, the syntax is:

Dw# - prefix

1/2: BG1 or BG2

CON/ENC/FMG... : the type of Mage, in this case Conjurer

The last number: the highest level of spells used (or L for a lich)

That is interesting ;)

 

Btw, could you tell me if there is a easy way to make sarevok drink potions please ?

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Oh, just one other thing (this isn't specific to v24) Melissan and Demogorgon's scripts check for a nearby PC with Carsomyr before casting stoneskin, this isn't necessary as melstone.spl is undispellable anyway.

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