Modlist Discussion: A Prelude to Sigil

[UMNiK]

7 hours ago, CamDawg said:

Most mods are hosted by one of the big modding communities: The Gibberlings Three (G3), Pocket Plane Group (PPG), Spellhold Studios (SHS), or Weasel Mods (WM). You can also find some on the Beamdog forums or other communities.

Am I correct in assuming that since the dissolution of BWS, there is no single master compatibility list? How would one go about finding out which mods are compatible with EET and/or 2.6, for example? Check them manually one by one? Apologies if that's a silly question, trying to jump back into modding after a bit of break. The current state of things is... confusing, to put it kindly.

[CamDawg]

The good news for EET is that they keep a list (and its support thread) of EET-compatible mods, and it's kept very up-to-date.

While here were a few mods that needed updates for the 2.6 patch--I need to do an update for a few Tweaks components--for the most part everything should still just work.

Otherwise, yeah, you're probably going to have to poke around forums and readmes.

[UMNiK]

5 hours ago, CamDawg said:

The good news for EET is that they keep a list (and its support thread) of EET-compatible mods, and it's kept very up-to-date.

Dang, if an alphabetically sorted list is considered good news nowadays, I really didn't appreciate what we had with BWS (categories of mod type, newbie-friendly presets, dependencies...). Seems like such a shame that after 20 years there are still multiple disparate communities and individual authors floating all over the place rather than a centralised repo or wiki.

 

Forgot to say so in the last post, but kudos for your work putting all this together! Might not be what I was hoping for when jumping back in (last time I checked, the only obstacle was Beamdog taking their time with patches), but it's great to see there are still not only modders, but people who want those mods to be usable by regular folks.

[Graion Dilach]

I'd like to point out that said EET list is a repo - https://github.com/K4thos/EET-Compatibility-List.

[jastey]

9 minutes ago, UMNiK said:

rather than a centralised repo or wiki.

We tried it, it didn't work. Not to say: Feel free to set it up and maintain it. And when you'll burn out it will be outdated after two weeks after you stopped working on it.

[Graion Dilach]

TBH, an alphabetical list pointing towards mod websites is probably better than complete install lists because mod sites/forum topics change way less often. I think @K4thos's solution was very maintenance-friendly and was the best possible outcome, all things considered.

[UMNiK]

It just seems so strange that these things still live or die on individuals' burn outs, disagreements, and time commitments. Presumably, all of the websites are maintained and paid for by multiple different folks passionate about modding, yet the actual business of getting these mods into the hands of players is too much to collaborate in a sustainable way on?.. And this is after the Baldur's Gate 3 announcement and Beamdog finally pushing 2.6 out the door? The only constant is EET being a shining beacon of inter-mod collaboration and patching in this darkness (at least from a cursory glance at the usual forums, they seem to have the best ratio of actual mod updates/complaints about lack of updates).

 

Anyway, is there any point going to last BWS' Game.ini mod groups for direction or are they hopelessly outdated and the EET compatibility list truly the best source available?

[Azazello]

On 9/12/2021 at 4:36 PM, UMNiK said:

It just seems so strange that these things still live or die on individuals' burn outs, disagreements, and time commitments. Presumably, all of the websites are maintained and paid for by multiple different folks passionate about modding, yet the actual business of getting these mods into the hands of players is too much to collaborate in a sustainable way on?.. And this is after the Baldur's Gate 3 announcement and Beamdog finally pushing 2.6 out the door? The only constant is EET being a shining beacon of inter-mod collaboration and patching in this darkness (at least from a cursory glance at the usual forums, they seem to have the best ratio of actual mod updates/complaints about lack of updates).

 

Anyway, is there any point going to last BWS' Game.ini mod groups for direction or are they hopelessly outdated and the EET compatibility list truly the best source available?

There's a saying.... "Don't Feed The Tr*ll(s)"

I won't. But someone's gotta comment on these statements (and it better be done before Jarno jumps in here). And since I'm not one of those paid-for website staff, I don't have to be nice about this.

 

There's bias; and then there's bias. You gave yourself away with the "EET being a shining beacon" line... daf**!!?! You made me spit out my coffee onto my (work) screen.

Are you purposely being provocative? You're certainly not joking. Maybe the vapors are getting to you.

"...the actual business of..."  wha- What?! You must be in the wrong modding community. I don't know of any modding comm that's 'in the business' of anything. Even She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named would not go so far as to use a line like that. Never has, as far as I know.

So it sounds like you and similar Karens better curb your "so strange that these things still live or die on individuals' burn outs, disagreements, and time commitments" fake shock & surprise, and wake up that as much as people love the game and the mods, they're not going to map compatibility permutations of mod components [somebody do the math - which formula(e) should we use?] - for FREE - to the detriment of actually having a Life.

woah, radical thought, I know. Deal with it.

(Sad and Madness thing is, many have done just that. Result: jastey just told you.)

 

Or do it yourself. Try to prove wrong the decades of contributions by mod communities.

[jastey]

1 hour ago, Azazello said:

Or do it yourself. Try to prove wrong the decades of contributions by mod communities.

That, tbh.

Just be aware that there are people working hours - days, weeks in their free time to keep mods up-to-date, bugfree, and compatible, including setting up an automated installer, and feeding it with the needed info. You mention the EE's hitting 2.6 - yes, it's great that the game gets patched, I'm not saying anything against it, but did it occur to you that a new patch means almost all mods need to be updated to be compatible again? But sure, we could have invented an automated solution for that a decade ago, had we only tried a little harder. *facepalm*

[UMNiK]

If only this united defensive front could be harnessed in creating centralised documentation (much like the OP!)... What possible bias could I have beyond wanting to make modding easier for myself? Last time I looked, there was a single program (BWS) that included preset automatic options for both versions (originals and EEs), including modding platforms (BGT and nascent EET), and a plethora of mods organised by salient categories. Presently, I get politely (eh, by modding community standards) invited to recreate everything single-handedly with no explanation for where it has all gone in the meantime (as I refuse to believe a petty squabble could undo years of cooperation). Seemingly, EET has blossomed into a viable single default platform (likely sped along by the delisting of originals from stores, even if they are included with EEs), but for some reason the individual mod organisation has regressed to an abominable state. Obviously, there is plenty of energy for developing the mods and picking fights, so what is the holdup? I had assumed the idea was to get people to play the darn things, not just post them and hope they will be found (not to imply I don't appreciate their mere existence, my shadowy agenda of wanting to play mods is a result of loving them).

What I am disappointed in is the reversal from eagerly waiting on Beamdog to not being able to match and surpass them when they finally release (as was done previously: it was a long time before EEs could be considered superior to modding the originals). There is no more excuse of waiting on external factors, in fact, the opposite is true: BG3 is likely to create more and more incentive for people to go back to the originals as it grows closer to release.

What is the next best action to be taken to avoid asking (as a prelude to insulting) a practical stranger (or, indeed, anyone new to modding) to sort through years of disparate communities in the future? Is it some kinda joining of the ranks around EET and Project Infinity in a separate single documentation GitHub repo while politely asking to manually create pull requests to it alongside posting on other platforms (this, shs, beamdog forums)? More specifically, what needs to happen to get from last BWS' Game.ini groups and up-to-date EET compatibility list to first a list arranged by game, purpose, and scope, then a suggested "safe" install order to get from buying the EEs to enjoying the fruits of last 20 years of modders'  labour? I don't mind personally arranging the overlap into a new google doc purely by matching mod names, but I have to believe there is someone better qualified and up-to-date.

To reiterate and emphasise, as it doesn't seem to come across - I don't claim to be the second coming of Weimer, ALIEN, or K4thos myself, just a regular mod enjoyer wanting to avail himself of collective knowledge of modders and fellow mod users and possibly contribute what little I possess. At no point did I order anyone to work themselves to the bone at my behest, rather I implore the numerous existing thriving communities to pool their resources in a way that does not require full-time commitment from individuals while allowing their occasional contributions to maintain a usable shared database. You know, the good side of the Internet.

[Jazira]

There is also "She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" version and Selphira French fork of BWS to fulfill your needs.

1 hour ago, UMNiK said:

it was a long time before EEs could be considered superior to modding the originals

The EE are already far more superior, technically speaking. This is the new content that is not.

1 hour ago, UMNiK said:

 Last time I looked, there was a single program (BWS) that included preset automatic options for both versions (originals and EEs), including modding platforms (BGT and nascent EET), and a plethora of mods organised by salient categories.

I suppose this is what made the maintainers to go burn out : the amount of daily work chores, especially since the EE came out.

There is a French saying that come into my mind : On est jamais mieux servi que par soi-même.

That mean : You will never be served better than by yourself. Or something like that.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Jazira

[CamDawg]

I think you're getting pushback because you seem to have a number of misconceptions baked into your analysis.

EET is a magnificent project, made even more impressive that it's built primarily from the sweat of one modder. In the end, however, it's not a shining beacon to whom modders need to flock--it's another platform for players to play, and for modders to support. Tutu and BGT didn't eliminate the need to support oBG or oBG2; similarly, EET will not alleviate the need to support BGEE, BG2EE, and (eventually) IWDEE, IWD2, NWN, God of War, Minecraft, and whatever else K4thos' gigantic brain can incorporate into the platform. The EEs didn't even alleviate the need to support the originals.

The lament about not having a centralized source for modding is similarly misplaced. We've always had multiple communities, where players and modders were free to hang out at whichever place had a vibe they could enjoy. We've seen more consolidation in the past, say, five years than we've had at any point. While activity has been declining for years, in terms of cooperation, we're in a great place and have been for a long while now. What's keeping SHS, PPG, and G3 as separate communities is not some sense of rivalry between them (or the individuals therein), but the fact that each has built its own valuable identity. I was happy to help Lava build Weasel Mods, because I love the fact that we now have another place where players can explore modding.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm for the old BWS, and the lamentation of losing things to individual burnout, you're not connecting the dots here. The maintenance of BWS--or more specifically, BWP--was a nightmare and led directly to AL|EN building PI in a way to avoid the pitfalls that doomed BWS. It also never supported the EEs, omitting a significant chunk of activity in the past seven years.

I don't think "then go do it yourself" is a constructive response, and I'm not expecting any individual to try. A 300-variable problem of a community-wide install order that minimizes conflicts has several useful guidelines--which I've done my best to outline some in the tutorial--but no definitive answer. Every new mod, every new component simply exacerbates this. This is why I think the focus should be on "here is knowledge on how to figure this out" rather than "this will work", especially since the latter can become invalid the next time a mod--any mod--gets updated. 

I appreciate your feedback!

[DavidW]

The only thing I'd add to Cam's sensible post is that systematically working out an install order is combinatorically impossible. Baldur's Gate mods care a lot about install order precisely because of how powerful the modding tools available are (you can modify already-modified mods) and with 300+ mods to consider, the number of possible install orders is 300!, i.e. about 10^600. So it's completely impossible to systematically test to find the best order. And working out on theoretical grounds would require one to get into the innards of the code of those 300 mods in a way that's not quite mathematically impossible, but still dramatically beyond any realistic time commitment for a modder or team of modders. (I wrote and maintain SCS, probably the most technically complex mod out there, and I promise you that figuring out the right mod order is horribly more complicated than that.)

The best you can do is work out general principles that govern mod order. And those are fairly well worked out, and fairly widely available (e.g, quest/NPC mods early, tweak mods late). 

[Cahir]

Also, doing a leg work (e.g asking people about mod order, reading read mies) is not a bad think. I was doing exactly that when I bulit my EET setup which led to:

1. Finding, reporting and in result fixing by mod authors a couple of bugs an compatibility issues that my setup triggered.

2. Improving few mods based on my initial feedback. 

3. Me learning a lot of stuff about the mods I planned to install, which I probably wouldn't learn if I have not put an effort to do all this. 

In the end I did not regret every minute of those 3 or so weeks of poking different modders about stuff (although, I'm not entirely sure if all those modders were equally happy about me poking them). 

 

[Cahir]

Also what I would add to DavidW's post, is that probably instead trying to build a perfect install order for all mods available, it would be good to build a few (or more) smaller, thematically consistent modlists, that players could plug in from the get go. I. e "Lava's mods" with most of the mods from our beloved Lava, or "Vanilla expanded" with mainly the most basic must-have mods that expand vanilla experience, or "The prime of megamods" with all megamods to expand the world. Something like that. I know from experience, that throwing all mods into the cauldron doesn't work.