The Original Viconia Relationship thread...

[BevH]

Non linear is a good idea, but the structure of the romance might get in the way. Most of them work by having a timer, and certian talks happen at certian times, as everyone probably well knows . I'd like to do something like that with some of the talks, but also include the option of force talking Viconia with some options not opening up until certian points on the timer and some only available when a certian number of Friendship points are achieved...  It should be a two way street, the PC should have to do some of the work, after all ... (Is that what you're thinking by non-linear? It would still be kind of linear that way...)

Cailean's romance starts out that way - the PC has the option of starting a conversation. How it works in Cailean's mod is when the timer goes off, you're given a short dialogue that let's you know you can talk to Cailean (click to talk). Then you are given a set of questions you can ask him. I'm with you in that it's nice that the PC can initiate some of the LTs.

[Cybersquirt]

– it doesn't prove anything, and there's nothing in the game that will. Making Viconia bisexual would be a reinterpretation of her character, and the only thing that talks for this reinterpretation is that there are people who are willing to make it.

Not to start this arguement again, or at the risk of beating a dead horse, I don't really see making Viconia bisexual as a reinterpretation - assuming the writing stays in character and is true to that characterization that we already know to be Viconia.

 

OUR sexuality is as much a part of who we are as is our skin/hair color, but it's not so easily identified, and can only be honestly defined by ourselves. The onlooker that tries to guess what we are only has the conventions and 'tells' that they are used to seeing in similar people - All gay men are into fashion; all lesbians are androgenous; all straight men are althletic; all straight women wear makeup; all pro-gay people ARE gay; etc. The only problem is that this is stereotyping and there will always be someone that comes along and defies it.

 

Take Imoen, for example.. there is no real proof as to what her sexuality is but people have definite ideas. imo, it is only seen as a reinterpretation by those who don't share the same idea; when the fact is that there's nothing in the game to back up either stance as she just wasn't fully developed to begin with. Viconia was developed further than Imoen; we know Viconia likes men and this mod just opens the next door, as it were, to the possibility that she likes women - I'm quite sure she won't hate men in it.

 

What's the point? I hope it came across in there (because it really was a bit of a realization for me), but I've said before it's up to the author to make it work; I'll say again it's up to the author to make it work. If it's written well, it will become a believable extension of Viconia's personality. (not to pressure Zandilar or anything )

 

Wheeee..

 

On another note.. I didn't see Viconia as a whore, but did think she was overlooked in ToB (even with her alignment change). I didn't see her as a whore because she's not any different than the society she was raised in and did not not prostitute herself when she left it - she's just very sexual as opposed to being frigid or timid. I think there's a big difference.

note that there is no masculine version of the word whore? why is it only "wrong" when women do it?

[JPS]

– it doesn't prove anything, and there's nothing in the game that will. Making Viconia bisexual would be a reinterpretation of her character, and the only thing that talks for this reinterpretation is that there are people who are willing to make it.

Not to start this arguement again, or at the risk of beating a dead horse, I don't really see making Viconia bisexual as a reinterpretation - assuming the writing stays in character and is true to that characterization that we already know to be Viconia.

 

OUR sexuality is as much a part of who we are as is our skin/hair color, but it's not so easily identified, and can only be honestly defined by ourselves. The onlooker that tries to guess what we are only has the conventions and 'tells' that they are used to seeing in similar people - All gay men are into fashion; all lesbians are androgenous; all straight men are althletic; all straight women wear makeup; all pro-gay people ARE gay; etc. The only problem is that this is stereotyping and there will always be someone that comes along and defies it.

 

Take Imoen, for example.. there is no real proof as to what her sexuality is but people have definite ideas. imo, it is only seen as a reinterpretation by those who don't share the same idea; when the fact is that there's nothing in the game to back up either stance as she just wasn't fully developed to begin with. Viconia was developed further than Imoen; we know Viconia likes men and this mod just opens the next door, as it were, to the possibility that she likes women - I'm quite sure she won't hate men in it.

 

What's the point? I hope it came across in there (because it really was a bit of a realization for me), but I've said before it's up to the author to make it work; I'll say again it's up to the author to make it work. If it's written well, it will become a believable extension of Viconia's personality. (not to pressure Zandilar or anything )

 

Wheeee..

I think that's what I tried to say.

 

If it helps, I was using 'reinterpret' in the sense "take a new look at, without being bound by what other people (including the game designers) think", not in the sense "change the character beyong recognition just because I can (evil laugh)". In my book, reinterpretation is, or at least can be, a good thing (as you say, it's up to the author to make it work...).

 

So it would seem that we're on the same side here

[Mistress Elysia]

Hi there...thanks to Cyberquirt I have been directed in this direction....

 

I personally think it would be more than plausable for Viconia to find women attractive - where there are no society 'stigmas' attached to something, no one feels bad and therefore your curiosity / urges can be explored to your little hearts content, for good or for ill. Cyber and I were discussing this because of a project I am working on at the moment regarding a bisexual female Fey'ri (elven tiefling) character - I really would like her and Viconia to have a 'sordid little affair', but am concerned with peoples reactions to this.

 

On another note.. I didn't see Viconia as a whore, but did think she was overlooked in ToB (even with her alignment change). I didn't see her as a whore because she's not any different than the society she was raised in and did not not prostitute herself when she left it - she's just very sexual as opposed to being frigid or timid. I think there's a big difference.

note that there is no masculine version of the word whore? why is it only "wrong" when women do it?

 

I couldn't have said it better myself...

Elysia

xx

[jester]

Aren't Drow bisexual in general? Female drow are surely used to be very outspoken about their desires, since they are the ruling class.

[JPS]

As Zandilar pointed out, the official D&D material doesn't mention non-heterosexuality at all (because, for some reason, attraction between imaginary characters of the same gender would make the products "unsuitable for children", and Hasbro [the company that owns Wizards of the Coast, who bought Dungeons & Dragons from TSR, who bought the rights to the Forgotten Realms from Ed Greenwood] will have none of that. It's almost as ridiculous as the "no female nipples" clause in the d20 license agreement – as we all know, it's unnatural for children to be anywhere near female nipples But I think I've digressed a bit here...).

[Kish]

Aren't Drow bisexual in general?

I think that idea comes from the Solaufein romance, more than from anything official.

Female drow are surely used to be very outspoken about their desires, since they are the ruling class.

Well, we know of at least one case in which female drow can't be outspoken about their desires; Phaere got tortured with tentacle rods for falling in love. The idea that homosexuality must be tolerated because one gender is completely dominant over the other seems non-sequiturish to me. There's really no evidence one way or the other how drow, as a culture, or Lolth, as a deity, feel about homosexuality.

[Zandilar]

? it doesn't prove anything, and there's nothing in the game that will. Making Viconia bisexual would be a reinterpretation of her character, and the only thing that talks for this reinterpretation is that there are people who are willing to make it.

Not to start this arguement again, or at the risk of beating a dead horse, I don't really see making Viconia bisexual as a reinterpretation - assuming the writing stays in character and is true to that characterization that we already know to be Viconia.

 

OUR sexuality is as much a part of who we are as is our skin/hair color, but it's not so easily identified, and can only be honestly defined by ourselves. The onlooker that tries to guess what we are only has the conventions and 'tells' that they are used to seeing in similar people - All gay men are into fashion; all lesbians are androgenous; all straight men are althletic; all straight women wear makeup; all pro-gay people ARE gay; etc. The only problem is that this is stereotyping and there will always be someone that comes along and defies it.

 

Take Imoen, for example.. there is no real proof as to what her sexuality is but people have definite ideas. imo, it is only seen as a reinterpretation by those who don't share the same idea; when the fact is that there's nothing in the game to back up either stance as she just wasn't fully developed to begin with. Viconia was developed further than Imoen; we know Viconia likes men and this mod just opens the next door, as it were, to the possibility that she likes women - I'm quite sure she won't hate men in it.

 

What's the point? I hope it came across in there (because it really was a bit of a realization for me), but I've said before it's up to the author to make it work; I'll say again it's up to the author to make it work. If it's written well, it will become a believable extension of Viconia's personality. (not to pressure Zandilar or anything )

 

Wheeee..

 

On another note.. I didn't see Viconia as a whore, but did think she was overlooked in ToB (even with her alignment change). I didn't see her as a whore because she's not any different than the society she was raised in and did not not prostitute herself when she left it - she's just very sexual as opposed to being frigid or timid. I think there's a big difference.

note that there is no masculine version of the word whore? why is it only "wrong" when women do it?

 

 

Well there is a certian amount of whorishness about Viconia, unfortunately. Particularly with the way she will use her body and throw herself at a male PC, and most of the male NPCs. I am not saying it's a bad thing at all, I am just mentioning that it's a stereotype, that is all, and that she fits it to a certian extent...

 

(And she did prostitute herself once she got out of the Underdark:

"A group of goln -you call them goblins- tried to seal my fate, but a human merchant came in his caravan, and his guards scattered them. From a distance he had thought me a surface elf. Surprisingly, when he learned I was Drow he offered shelter. It was a sanctuary while I learned the human tongue. He was Calimshite, I believe. They are fond of slaves. The price for my safety was the favors I bestowed... erotic arts that the Drow have honed for an eon."

 

Yes she did turn it around eventually, but if that's not prostituting herself, what is?)

 

There's also the small issue of her "stupidity"... This is a woman with 16 intelligence and 18 wisdom, and yet she still utters this priceless line...

 

"Perhaps. I haven't devoted much thought to it, though I've noticed that the role of male and female are reversed here on the surface."

 

Waela j'nesst! What a stupid observation from someone who has been travelling on the Sword Coast where there are just as many strong capable women as there are strong capable men - how she came to that conclusion, I'll never know!! You just have to look at the Faerunian pantheon to know that there is no way that human society would develop as totally patriarchal! (To speak plainly - there are just as many powerful goddesses as there are gods.)

 

I am going to do my best with what I have to work with... I'll try and keep true to her personality, but there are just a few things that were built into her on the basis of false assumptions about the world by the designers. (I sometimes question weather or not the developers at Bioware do, in fact, possess anything resembling a world bible for the Forgotten Realms...)

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

I personally think it would be more than plausable for Viconia to find women attractive - where there are no society 'stigmas' attached to something, no one feels bad and therefore your curiosity / urges can be explored to your little hearts content, for good or for ill. Cyber and I were discussing this because of a project I am working on at the moment regarding a bisexual female Fey'ri (elven tiefling) character - I really would like her and Viconia to have a 'sordid little affair', but am concerned with peoples reactions to this. 

 

 

Careful... Fey'ri are actually half-fiends... In fact, they're a race of half-fiends that have bred true. (Fey'ri have a lot higher ECL than tieflings)

 

An elven tiefling is just a tiefling... they probably would resemble an elf with a hint of fiendishness.

 

I don't know the context of your project, but honestly - why care what people would think? Make sure you give adequate warning (even if kept purposely vague to prevent spoilers)... Then people can make their own choices regarding it. It's not like you're going to be holding a gun to people's heads and making them download it, right?

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

Aren't Drow bisexual in general?

I think that idea comes from the Solaufein romance, more than from anything official.

 

I wouldn't say that, actually. The idea that the drow are less "straight" comes from the fact that they're a very hedonistic race - very indulgent of all their desires.

 

Well, we know of at least one case in which female drow can't be outspoken about their desires; Phaere got tortured with tentacle rods for falling in love.  The idea that homosexuality must be tolerated because one gender is completely dominant over the other seems non-sequiturish to me.  There's really no evidence one way or the other how drow, as a culture, or Lolth, as a deity, feel about homosexuality.

 

If it wasn't for the fact that Abeir-Toril doesn't have the same social mores as Earth, I'd agree with you.

[Cybersquirt]

I didn't see Viconia as a whore, but did think she was overlooked in ToB (even with her alignment change).  I didn't see her as a whore because she's not any different than the society she was raised in and did not not prostitute herself when she left it - she's just very sexual as opposed to being frigid or timid.  I think there's a big difference.  Note that there is no masculine version of the word whore?  why is it only "wrong" when women do it?

 

 

Well there is a certian amount of whorishness about Viconia, unfortunately. Particularly with the way she will use her body and throw herself at a male PC, and most of the male NPCs. I am not saying it's a bad thing at all, I am just mentioning that it's a stereotype, that is all, and that she fits it to a certian extent...

 

(And she did prostitute herself once she got out of the Underdark:

"A group of goln -you call them goblins- tried to seal my fate, but a human merchant came in his caravan, and his guards scattered them. From a distance he had thought me a surface elf. Surprisingly, when he learned I was Drow he offered shelter. It was a sanctuary while I learned the human tongue. He was Calimshite, I believe. They are fond of slaves. The price for my safety was the favors I bestowed... erotic arts that the Drow have honed for an eon."

 

Yes she did turn it around eventually, but if that's not prostituting herself, what is?)

 

There's also the small issue of her "stupidity"... This is a woman with 16 intelligence and 18 wisdom, and yet she still utters this priceless line...

 

"Perhaps. I haven't devoted much thought to it, though I've noticed that the role of male and female are reversed here on the surface."

 

Waela j'nesst! What a stupid observation from someone who has been travelling on the Sword Coast where there are just as many strong capable women as there are strong capable men - how she came to that conclusion, I'll never know!! You just have to look at the Faerunian pantheon to know that there is no way that human society would develop as totally patriarchal! (To speak plainly - there are just as many powerful goddesses as there are gods.)

 

I am going to do my best with what I have to work with... I'll try and keep true to her personality, but there are just a few things that were built into her on the basis of false assumptions about the world by the designers. (I sometimes question weather or not the developers at Bioware do, in fact, possess anything resembling a world bible for the Forgotten Realms...)

I understand what you're saying about the stereotype but I think there's more to it than that; at first glance, she does indeed come across that way but (as I tried to suggest) why is it only bad when a woman does it? I also understand you say it's not a bad thing, but "whore" is a "bad" word, and she only fits the stereotype to the extent that you fit her into it. Maybe that's all she's supposed to be and in fighting that notion is That Which Will Always Bug Me About Vicionia.

 

I see her flirt with most male NPC's but not throw herself at them. ??

I see her as a strong and sexual being; strong in the sense that she is used to a position of power and sex is indeed an extension of the power. Whore? No, Dominatrix.

I, like you, see that she has these great stats but the designers forgot about them (the "overlooked" bit); as opposed to Jaheira who has some lines comparable to a mensa (now I love Jaheira but come On).

 

Remember that Viconia has led a sheltered existence, so her view of the surface is still distorted; though she has been on the surface for a few years (2-5 at most) she is not, as we see, free to travel and interact with the inhabitants of Faerun at will. Hmm.. ..anyway.

 

She probably believes the roles are reversed on the surface because of her experiences with the humans treating her as an outcast, whether it is merely because she is drow or not - Viconia (having grown up in a matriarchal society) will be acutely aware of her lack of station now and because station was granted soley based on her gender she probably assumes all women on the surface are equally powerless based on the way she is treated. Now, while there may be equal representation in the pantheon, I don't think Viconia's that far off base if we look at Nalia's situation as an example of how "equal" women are in Faerun.

 

Ah, the trader. I still say there's a difference but maybe we'll have to get back to you on that.

 

Lastly, would you care to elaborate on that last comment - " there are just a few things that were built into her on the basis of false assumptions about the world by the designers" ?

[Zandilar]

Heya,

 

I see her flirt with most male NPC's but not throw herself at them. ??

I see her as a strong and sexual being; strong in the sense that she is used to a position of power and sex is indeed an extension of the power.  Whore?  No, Dominatrix. 

I, like you, see that she has these great stats but the designers forgot about them (the "overlooked" bit); as opposed to Jaheira who has some lines comparable to a mensa (now I love Jaheira but come On).

 

I'm just a little bit jaded with romances in general (funny thing to say given what I'm trying to do, hey?)...

 

I wasn't saying outright that I thought Viconia was a whore. I just said she fits the ARCHETYPE. (Which is not actually the same as a whore!) The ARCHETYPE refered to as the Whore is a woman who is strongly sexual and not afraid to express it. It is viewed in a negative light because our society as a whole looks down on promiscuous women. It's okay for a guy to sleep around, but a woman must be a virgin on her wedding night. (Now of course I know things really aren't that bad in this day and age, but the attitudes from that darker time persist to this day...) Anyway, I personally don't have a problem with it. But I do seem to be having difficulty explaining this. *sigh*

 

(Oh and given the way she "surrenders" and invites the male to taste of his victory - nope, she's not a Domme in any way shape or form. )

 

Remember that Viconia has led a sheltered existence, so her view of the surface is still distorted; though she has been on the surface for a few years (2-5 at most) she is not, as we see, free to travel and interact with the inhabitants of Faerun at will.  Hmm..   ..anyway.

 

Umm... No. She's been constantly travelling. IIRC Menzoberranzan is far to the north (same city that Drizzt comes from - Menzoberranzan is north of the Evermoors which is part of the Savage Frontier). She's travelled down through Silverymoon (or at least the Silver Marches), down past Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate all the way down to Amn. That is a very long journey without resorting to teleporting!! She did try to settle down at one stage too. I think she's seen enough of humanity to work out that things aren't the same as they were back in the Underdark... And she's smart enough to realize that it's not just a mirror image either.

 

 

She probably believes the roles are reversed on the surface because of her experiences with the humans treating her as an outcast, whether it is merely because she is drow or not - Viconia (having grown up in a matriarchal society) will be agibberlings3.netgibberlings3.netgibberlings3.netcutely aware of her lack of station now and because station was granted soley based on her gender she probably assumes all women on the surface are equally powerless based on the way she is treated.  Now, while there may be equal representation in the pantheon, I don't think Viconia's that far off base if we look at Nalia's situation as an example of how "equal" women are in Faerun.

 

If she were male, they'd still be treating her as an outcast - she'd know that too. It's not her gender that scares people, it's her race. Even the Beshaban at that start refers to her as an "it"...

 

Nalia... well they got it wrong. In Amn, it's not your GENDER that talks it's your WEALTH. There should have been NO question that she would assume her father's title upon his death!!

 

Lastly, would you care to elaborate on that last comment - " there are just a few things that were built into her on the basis of false assumptions about the world by the designers" ?

 

Well, basically as I continue to maintain, the gender bias is nowhere near as extreme as our own world. There are pockets where males are dominant, but even in those areas it is nowhere near the level of female dominance in drow society. The fact that Viconia doesn't seem to see this is a pretty good indication that she's been built on a false assumption. (Maybe I exaggerated a little when I used a plural...)

 

Besides, didn't they listen to themselves when they wrote "Females of the Realms can excel at any area they wish, and are easily the equals of their male counterparts in every skill or respect"?

[Meira]

Besides, didn't they listen to themselves when they wrote "Females of the Realms can excel at any area they wish, and are easily the equals of their male counterparts in every skill or respect"?

 

I think that the game designers are just trying to be politically correct here and avoid any hassle.

 

For my part I did not find Viconia to deserve to be called 'slut' or 'whore' while playing her romance. Mainly for two reasons:

 

1) If you take, say, our loveable bard Haer'Dalis - he's very conveniently intimate with the owner of the theatre company. While we do not know his motives for that at least we can guess the perks he is accessing. Also Skie / Eldoth romance from BG1 smells a bit rotten: rich girl and poor guy... Money would not be involved here would it? I have not had them in my party though so this also is just guessing, but the point is that there are several males that sell their bodies for money or other things they want and yet they get very little or no insults.

 

2) They way she treats PC is quite obviously an attempt to spook him away from her while at the same time she's drawn to him like moth is drawn to candlelight. She literally begs the PC to turn away in disgust as she tells of the Calismite trader. And for all we know she might be lying (she does that from time to time) or exaggerating just to drive you away.

EDIT: Of course the point here being that she knows enough of surface way to know from which strings to pull when she wishes to shock you.

 

As for this mod I don't think it's really relevant to look for evidence of Viconia being bisexual or not. If the finished mod can make us *believe* so, it does not matter if we have evidence or not. Ultimately modding is anyway adding content that was not there before. However what I think is important is the *reason* to make female romance for Viconia. Is it because you feel that it will add something to the game; tell an interesting and believable story? Or because lesbian drow are kinky and cool and Vic is obviously bisexual cause she's big evil slut anyway? We all know how popular kissing girls are in movies / magazines aimed solely for male consumers. Maybe I was exaggerating a bit here but I hope you get my point.

 

-Meira

[Grim Squeaker]

Coz it'll make it interesting and I'd like to see the alternative way the romance could have gone coz the the Male romance is influenced by the drow gender issue. It's not so that I can get turned on by the thought of lesbian drow...

[jester]

I disliked the use of the word 'whore' and Meira just said everything I should have.

 

@ tell an interesting and believable story/ Ultimately modding is anyway adding content that was not there before

 

In BG1 the only women from a female dominated environment apart from Vic was Dynaheir who sadly is dead in BG2 and I don't know why *sob*. I wanted to get a different take on society by having the story told with a different twist. Not ours, mind you.