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The Original Viconia Relationship thread...


Grim Squeaker

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:D Um...I'm pretty sure the original purpose to this thread before the arguement started was to give one's opinions on the subject, so I'm just gonna say I think it's a cool idea. I was dissapointed to see this idea just dissapear, and I am glad Grim has brought it back.

 

And it is true BioWare didn't make Viconia a bisexual/lesbian originally, but if it could be written well enough that she is, why not? Just don't download it if you don't like the idea.

 

You have my support, and I hope to see this work out :D .

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Ahem. This conversation goes nicely enough without me, but let me add something nevertheless:

 

In my opinion the reason why Vic flirts with Anomen and Sarevok would very likely to be her desire to control men - grind them under her boot. Sex is *very* effective tool for that. With the PC things get out of hand for her and she loses her heart in the process. It's been I while since I've played her romance though and I can't exactly remember how it begins though.

 

Even though Drow society is competitive with female PC/NPC Viconia would not necessarily try to use sex as her primary way of gaining power. (Or at least she does not in the original game.) Thus the romance with female protagonist would indeed need to have a very different starting point.

 

-Meira

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Even though Drow society is competitive with female PC/NPC Viconia would not necessarily try to use sex as her primary way of gaining power. (Or at least she does not in the original game.) Thus the romance with female protagonist would indeed need to have a very different starting point.

I'd definately like to have lots of different ways of the friendship possibly turning into a romance. It definately shouldn't be a linear thing that builds up like the current romance.

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Well I thought she intended to maybe just use him and lose him with the PC, but she started to trust him, which is why she told him all the things she did. Note that she talks about less-sexual things as the romance progresses.

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I remember way back when this was first proposed. I like the idea personnally. I think I'd actually be willing to learn how to mod and help on it, if you wanted me to. Maybe having someone who's relying on me to do something would be a better motivator than "That could be an interesting thing to do..."

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Oh great, this is too good. Everyone's against me it seems... *sigh*

....

Oh and I'm full of shit, eh? Quite a strong reaction considering I've only been expressing my opinion. I've seen your posts anyway Cybersquirt, you'd probably prefer everyone in BG to be bisexual.

 

Do what you want, Grim. I'm just the minority. I'm like the only one who opposes the idea. But, like I said, new Drow = THUMBS UP :D

 

If you can't respect my opinion as to discuss this like responsible adults, then why am I wasting my time?

 

Remember. I'm not homophobic, if you're planning on using that argument. I've seen Fan Fictions with Viconia being with a woman, and it quite frankly didn't work.

you've already expressed your disapproval. How many different ways and times are you going to do it? I'm not trying to start a fight, I just think you're belaboring your point TO the point of irritation. But that's just my opinion.

 

You say you've seen no reason for her to be bisexual. Well let's look at that:

-we know the BioWare has not written any bisexual material (KoToR does not count)

-Mirrabbo's Imoen romance has nothing to do with my beliefs and I doubt it, alone, planted the seeds of this idea in the original posters head. (I'd thought of the idea before but when I read it in Lord M's mod I actually decided to post the idea as I then knew someone else liked it - Grim)

-since there is going to be no "evidence" either way, it becomes subjective.

 

You've just proven you're *baleeted* when you make the assumption that I think all BG characters should be Bi. I do not. I have never said you were homophobic either; since you've seen my posts, then, you know where I was coming from, else I'm glad you felt strongly enough about your opinion to make a reply where it was warranted as opposed to bringing it up in a completely unrelated issue.

 

And, for the record, I was merely poking you. I didn't mean to offend you but I must have hit a tender spot. I must remember it's location and stroke it fondly in the future. :D

 

Back on topic: I think Viconia would just as readily use a female PC as she would a male. The only thing that would be missing is the 'lowly male' aspect of it. Viconia is an opportunist, afterall.

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You say there's no evidence either way, are you referring to that evidence whether she's bisexual or not?

 

In my case I think it's far enough, I've made points. I think I'll make them again in a nice list to help clear things up for you. I'll even number them, so you can count how many favour her being straight as to how many favour her being Bisexual.

 

Viconia being straight

 

1. Viconia clearly presents a desire for strong males. In her dialogues with Sarevok you will find this, I'm sure there may be others.

2. She disgusts weak people, and, if you played the Viconia romance, you note she believes the roles of women and men are reversed on the surface. I concluded she believes women are weak. (Edit: Err... that's surface women, by the way.)

3. "Your mundane past interests me no more than the lives of any other passing acquaintance. Tell me of your struggle with your half-brother." - She says this in a conversation with a female PC. Clearly she is uninterested in the female PC. She'd rather hear about Sarevok.

4. She flirts with Anomen and Sarevok.

5. She does not flirt with any women.

6. My point earlier, what David Gaider wrote, about Viconia not believing in Drow Society. His exact words (which, actually, you pasted on FWP, so thank you Cybersquirt for helping me prove my point) are "She realizes, though, that she never enjoyed life amongst the drow...and now truly no longer belongs here." This point links to dismissing point number 1 below.

 

I'm sure there are MANY more points, but I can't really be bothered to look through all the Baldur's Gate 2 dialogues just to find something to support my argument.

 

Points for how, in any way, Viconia might be Bisexual

 

1. Drow society is not like human society. Drows can have sexual relationships with who they want. (read point 6, above, for why I dismissed it).

2. She doesn't mention that she doesn't like women in that way directly.

 

However, I think her open flirting with many males overrules point 2. Would she not flirt with a female prostitute if she was indeed Bi? She seems to me that she would if she felt that way. Feel free to mention anything other than what I've said that might support her bisexuality. I will accept it if it's undeniable.

 

I've proven I'm 'full of shit' again have I? In most of your posts that I've seen you seem to wonder why said woman can't like other women? I could find a few examples of your posts if you want. I recently saw one in the BG1 NPC project forum about Branwen, though in the end you agreed with Domi... I think...

 

Believe me, you haven't offended me. I am merely democratically discussing my opinions. I have shown no outrage at your words, and I doubt you could make me angry. I'm mature enough to not get angry at being told I'm "full of shit."

 

Nice reference to Viconia by the way with "stroke it fondly in the future." but, as I noted, it won't be necessary. :D

 

My, this is a large post. Grim Squeaker, do what you want, it's your mod idea, I doubt I could change your position on it and you've already got more than enough people willing to help it seems. I don't have to download it, and I'm sure this all will help you to make the mod more believable if you do decide to make it. In the end my arguments will have helped you justify your position will they not?

 

I agree with what you'd say about the fact that she'd USE someone to get what she wanted. Hell, it was one of the first points I made, though people seemed to ignore it and focus on the other part of what I said. She can PRETEND to like a woman, if it gets her somewhere, but what use has she got for anyone in the party? They all look out for each other well enough.

 

Anyway, sorry for the long post. But hopefully people will stop arguing with me and accept my opinion for what it is. Though if you have anything I can't deny (that's official) then I'll accept it, as I said before.

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You say there's no evidence either way, are you referring to that evidence whether she's bisexual or not?
Yes; just because it doesn't exist is not enough of an arguement for saying that it CAN'T be - nor is it enough of an arguement to say that it MUST be. IT'S SubJective! Look it up if you don't know what it means.

 

Viconia being straight

1. Viconia clearly presents a desire for strong males. In her dialogues with Sarevok you will find this, I'm sure there may be others.

2. She disgusts weak people, and, if you played the Viconia romance, you note she believes the roles of women and men are reversed on the surface. I concluded she believes women are weak. (Edit: Err... that's surface women, by the way.)

3. "Your mundane past interests me no more than the lives of any other passing acquaintance.  Tell me of your struggle with your half-brother." - She says this in a conversation with a female PC. Clearly she is uninterested in the female PC. She'd rather hear about Sarevok.

4. She flirts with Anomen and Sarevok.

5. She does not flirt with any women.

all but #2 & 3 are negated by the fact that BioWare has not written any bisexual content; 2 is your subjective opinion. Your opinion on #3 is also subjective. Viconia likes strength, yes.

6. My point earlier, what David Gaider wrote, about Viconia not believing in Drow Society. His exact words .. are "She realizes, though, that she never enjoyed life amongst the drow...and now truly no longer belongs here." This point links to dismissing point number 1 below.
I don't know what quote you're talking about - is that from unimpleted quests? If not, please do post the whole thing.

 

I'm sure there are MANY more points, but I can't really be bothered to look through all the Baldur's Gate 2 dialogues just to find something to support my argument.
ah. well, by all means, if the mood moves you be my guest.

 

Points for how, in any way, Viconia might be Bisexual

1. Drow society is not like human society. Drows can have sexual relationships with who they want. (read point 6, above, for why I dismissed it).

elves, not only drow.
2. She doesn't mention that she doesn't like women in that way directly.
also negated by BioWare not including any bisexual material

 

However, I think her open flirting with many males overrules point 2. Would she not flirt with a female prostitute if she was indeed Bi? She seems to me that she would if she felt that way. Feel free to mention anything other than what I've said that might support her bisexuality. I will accept it if it's undeniable.
You're trying to make me prove my point when I've already said that there is no proof, and why there will be no proof? It's subjective.

 

I've proven I'm 'full of shit' again have I? In most of your posts that I've seen you seem to wonder why said woman can't like other women? I could find a few examples of your posts if you want. I recently saw one in the BG1 NPC project forum about Branwen, though in the end you agreed with Domi... I think...
:D So long as you don't post me out of context, go for it - but since I am not the topic of discussion, don't be surprised when I ignore you. "said" women indeed.. in spite of what you think, there are few women who fall under that category.

 

She can PRETEND to like a woman, if it gets her somewhere
Just as she pretended to 'like' Charname in the beginning?

 

hopefully people will stop arguing with me and accept my opinion for what it is.
I accept your opinion.. but it takes 2 to argue.

 

Though if you have anything I can't deny (that's official) then I'll accept it, as I said before.
:D I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm explaining why I disagree with you the same way you're explaining why you disagree with me and this mod. I hope that's staightforward enough and, therefore, leaves no doubt. :D
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2. She disgusts weak people, and, if you played the Viconia romance, you note she believes the roles of women and men are reversed on the surface. I concluded she believes women are weak. (Edit: Err... that's surface women, by the way.)

Um... OK... but I certainly would not consider Jaheira to be weak. I'd also imagine that if Safana and/or Shar-Teel had made it into BG2, she would not think them weak, either.

 

3. "Your mundane past interests me no more than the lives of any other passing acquaintance.  Tell me of your struggle with your half-brother." - She says this in a conversation with a female PC. Clearly she is uninterested in the female PC. She'd rather hear about Sarevok.

 

Wouldn't this actually be referring to how she couldn't care less about the "boring" life the PC lead in Candlekeep? She wants to hear the tale of the family "struggle," not necessarily Sarevok himself.

 

6. My point earlier, what David Gaider wrote, about Viconia not believing in Drow Society. His exact words (which, actually, you pasted on FWP, so thank you Cybersquirt for helping me prove my point) are "She realizes, though, that she never enjoyed life amongst the drow...and now truly no longer belongs here." This point links to dismissing point number 1 below.

 

Why would swearing off one's society have any bearing on sexuality? Drow society is not based solely on sexuality. Would an American expatriate have to "turn gay"? No, because American society does not dictate that one must be gay or bi or straight or whatever. It makes no sense.

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Um... OK... but I certainly would not consider Jaheira to be weak.  I'd also imagine that if Safana and/or Shar-Teel had made it into BG2, she would not think them weak, either.

Actually, she seems to like Shar-Teel in BG1. At least she says something to the effect of "of all the stupid surface dwellers I've met, you're one of those I hate the least" (and now that I think about it, Shar-Teel answers "Flattery will get you nowhere": Is this proof that Viconia shows interest in another woman? :D )

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