Cahir's EET Epic Run Mod Order help request

[jastey]

Cahir, this might come a bit late, but if you enjoy quests like bgqe then bg1re might have some, too (list of components without explicit contents is here).

Also a note: I am about to update bg1re (with PI compatibility) and Endless BG1.

Also, my SoD Tweakpack might have a tweak or two to your liking.

(Sorry if you already considered those mods, I did not read the whole thread.)

[Cahir]

12 minutes ago, jastey said:

Cahir, this might come a bit late, but if you enjoy quests like bgqe then bg1re might have some, too (list of components without explicit contents is here).

Also a note: I am about to update bg1re (with PI compatibility) and Endless BG1.

Also, my SoD Tweakpack might have a tweak or two to your liking.

(Sorry if you already considered those mods, I did not read the whole thread.)

@Jastey, thanks I already included Endless BG1 on my list. Looks great! And I'm definitely wait for new release. 

As for Romantic Encounters, I'm not sure, IIRC it was too intense for me. Are those components you have listed without sex content? I mean, I don't mind occacional flirt here and there, but sex scenes always seemed a bit too much for BG.

As for SoD Tweaks, I hate to admit, but since I did not play SoD yet, I'm not entirely sure what most of those tweaks do (I read Readme, but still ) . Probably it would be more clear to me if I played it at least once. 

[jastey]

That's why I pointed out the components in the list for bg1re. There are really nice quests in there (which deserve a bit more attention ): No Regrets, The Messenger, The Honest Lies of Two Riversides,  Necromancer's Trouble, The Messenger 2: Rain or Snow or Gloom of Night, and also Bonus Quest: Scar - The Return (for which you need the components "Eltan's Spare Minute - no sex" and "Scar's Spare Time" - only sex if female PC wants to) are not only without intimacies but also really nice quests in bgqe quest-style (if I may say so).

[Lauriel]

1 minute ago, jastey said:

The Messenger 2: Rain or Snow or Gloom of Night

I especially like this one.  Everything about it.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Lauriel

[Cahir]

12 minutes ago, Lauriel said:

I especially like this one.  Everything about it.

Well, in that case call me convinced I honestly thought EE is all about intimacy. 

[Lauriel]

4 minutes ago, Cahir said:

I honestly thought EE is all about intimacy. 

That's a logical assumption.  

[jastey]

RE for BGII is. bg1re is a bit more divers. I should update bg1re tomorrow if nothing unexpected happens.

[Cahir]

@subtledoctorI'm trying to grasp proficiency changes you've made in SoB, but it's not clear to me. Did you cut the grandmastery level completely? Looking at the updated class descriptions I don't see any class could achieve this rank yet in setup.tra I see it listed and explained in details. 

Also how about kits from mods. Is their description changed somehow to reflect those changes? 

 

[subtledoctor]

52 minutes ago, Cahir said:

@subtledoctorI'm trying to grasp proficiency changes you've made in SoB, but it's not clear to me. Did you cut the grandmastery level completely? Looking at the updated class descriptions I don't see any class could achieve this rank yet in setup.tra I see it listed and explained in details. 

Also how about kits from mods. Is their description changed somehow to reflect those changes?

It's a 4-level system.  And really, the vanilla system is a 3-level system, since only fighters could get mastery, high mastery or grandmastery.  (Basically fighter can get mastery, and within mastery there is "mastery tier 1," "mastery tier 2," and "mastery tier 3." Why?? It's like exceptional strength BS all over again.)  In the SoB system, every level of mastery is useful; that is to say, every level of mastery is the cap for some class.

• Fighters can reach ++++
• Rangers and paladins and barbarians can reach +++
• Thieves and bards and clerics can reach ++
• Wizards can only reach + in a few weapons, at 1st level, and can never spend more pips as they level up (be aware when dual-classing!!)

Each pip gives an extra 1/2 APR.  And warriors get a bonus 1/2 APR at level... 15, I think.  Maybe 13.  I forget.  The upshot is, fighters can reach 3 base APR, and probably have ++ or +++ in a couple other weapons so even if you need to switch to something for a particular monster, you should still have base APR of 2 or 2.5.  This is not very different from the base game.

Rangers/paladins/barbarians can reach 2.5 base APR, probably in more than one weapon.  Also similar to vanilla.

Rogues and priests can reach 1.5 base APR with a couple weapons. This is different from the vanilla game; it's like letting them have specialization.*  Mages can only have 1 base APR, just like in the vanilla game, and it's very rare anyone will notice or care about that.

* However, in the vanilla game, rogues and priests with specialization wouldn't be able to make much use of it, because they don't get many points to spend.  The main difference in SoB is giving all classes (except mages) more points to spend, and so to get those higher levels in more weapons. 

This all gets complicated (or enhanced, depending on your point of view) by kits and other mods.

• Swashbucklers and Blades can get +++ with one-handed bladed weapons.
• Archers and Marksmen and Slingers and Snipers can get ++++ with missile weapons. 
• Assassins I think can get +++ with daggers, and Stalkers can get ++++ with short swords and daggers. 
• SoB Revised Weapon Styles gives an extra 1/2 APR for specializing in SWS; and gives a 1/round 'shield bash' for specializing in shield-fighting.
• I think Bladesingers can reach +++ in SWS, getting a full +1 APR instead of +1/2.
• Might & Guile's feat system has a feat available to certain kits at 9th level that grants you an extra level of mastery in one weapon, which can take you beyond your class max.

So there are lots of ways to build a character for melee. 

• A fighter could stick to their base 3 APR, mastering big 2-handed weapons for big damage bonuses and lots of crits.  (Fun with IR's 'Revised Critical Hits')
• Or sacrifice damage and some of their excellent thac0 to focus instead on dual-wielding small/medium weapons, for 4 base APR.
• Fighters, and priests, might instead choose to go with shield-fighting.  It is excellent defense, and the shield bash can disable as well as damage, so it can be useful to reduce incoming hits.  It's basically a defensive alternative to 2-handed style.  (With lots of pips to spend, a fighter can pretty easily switch between a 2-handed weapon and shield-fighting, getting big power or big defense as needed. This meshes well with IR's 'Revised Shield Bonuses.')
• A rogue can't go wrong with SWS; it gives extra attacks and a thac0 bonus, bringing your chance to land a hit closer to warriors.  With the 9th-level feat or a weapon-focused kit, you can get 2.5 APR and decent thac0.
• Alternatively, the rogue might dual-wield.  If you stick to very small weapons - ideally just two daggers - you can keep your thac0 from being too garbage, and it gets you to 3 APR plus a small defensive bonus.

 

[Cahir]

@subtledoctorthanks, that's very enlightening!  How about updating class and kit descriptions? For instance if I understand it correctly all FnP, M&G, and basically all other kits from various mods were written with vanilla proficiency system in mind. Now, when I install SoB will those kit descriptions change reflecting SoB updates? For instance, will Kensai description still show that he can reach 5 pips (Grandmastery) or will it show he can reach 4 pips (High Mastery)? Maybe it's a trivial matter to most of players, but for purists like me the consistency between kit description and how the kit actually works is important If I undwrstood. tra file correctly, description is updated for base classes only. Or am I missing something? 

[4udr4n]

@subtledoctor what limitations on proficiency do multiclass characters get under SoB?

[subtledoctor]

7 hours ago, Cahir said:

@subtledoctorthanks, that's very enlightening!  How about updating class and kit descriptions? For instance if I understand it correctly all FnP, M&G, and basically all other kits from various mods were written with vanilla proficiency system in mind. Now, when I install SoB will those kit descriptions change reflecting SoB updates? For instance, will Kensai description still show that he can reach 5 pips (Grandmastery) or will it show he can reach 4 pips (High Mastery)? Maybe it's a trivial matter to most of players, but for purists like me the consistency between kit description and how the kit actually works is important If I undwrstood. tra file correctly, description is updated for base classes only. Or am I missing something? 

Kit descriptions cannot easily be patched like other files can be.  The options are basically:

1. try to do a REPLACE_TEXTUALLY and hope that the description has the very precise string of words and letters so that it doesn't fail (and btw a string in another language would of course not match, so this can only work in English); or
2. ship fully-written kit descriptions for every kit that needs changing.  Which could mean every kit that could possibly be in the mod.  And of course some of those kits are added auto-magically (like FnP multi-clerics) so the text might not exist ahead of time; and more importantly, some other mods might also make changes to a kit, which should also be reflected in the kit description, and if you replace the description with the SoB description, it will lose the changes made by those mods, and thus be inaccurate.  You could put conditional clauses in the code looking for every mod that changes kit descriptions and ship descriptions in the SoB .tra file for every possible permutation... but that would be madness.

I don't really see a good answer.  Maybe the best thing would be to handle it with a UI mod, given the new moddable UI - figure out a way in the proficiency choice screen to show the max proficiency limits for each weapon.  (Maybe @lefreut or @kjeron would have ideas about that.). Or maybe... I don't know, maybe the mod could add a custom journal entry or "quest," which would list the limits for each kit?  At least then you would have it for reference somewhere in the UI.  Kind of like looking at the Civilopedia in Civ games. 

6 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

@subtledoctor what limitations on proficiency do multiclass characters get under SoB?

I'm pretty sure warrior multiclasses can reach +++ - one less than pure fighters.  And cleric and thief non-warrior multiclasses can reach ++.

Edited May 8, 2020 by subtledoctor

[lefreut]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

I don't really see a good answer.  Maybe the best thing would be to handle it with a UI mod, given the new moddable UI - figure out a way in the proficiency choice screen to show the max proficiency limits for each weapon.  (Maybe @lefreut or @kjeron would have ideas about that.). Or maybe... I don't know, maybe the mod could add a custom journal entry or "quest," which would list the limits for each kit?  At least then you would have it for reference somewhere in the UI.  Kind of like looking at the Civilopedia in Civ games.

Yes the UI can display the proficiency limit.

Quick test :

 

[4udr4n]

46 minutes ago, lefreut said:

Yes the UI can display the proficiency limit.

Please make LeUI do this, it would be excellent!

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Civilopedia

Also a great idea.

[Cahir]

30 minutes ago, 4udr4n said:

1 hour ago, lefreut said:

Yes the UI can display the proficiency limit.

Please make LeUI do this, it would be excellent!

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Civilopedia

Also a great idea.

@lefreut Oh that would be excellent, indeed. Looking great.

If I could list one thing I miss from more modern isometric titles it would be something like Codex, Civilopedia, whatever it may be called. If I could point the title I think did it perfectly that would be Dragon Age Origins. I literally read each single entry of that Codex.

@subtledoctor thank you for very detailed explanation, as usual. I figured it might be complicated to patch kit descriptions, but I just hoped you WeiDU wizards will figure something out It's not the end of the world, it's not that I read kit description very often. Still, it would be perfect if something can be done about it. Details, man, those little details matter.