Why don't you people get down to rolling back Beamdog's changes?

[Kilivitz]

19 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

How are the pickpocketing mechanics changed in the EEs? Tried to do a quick search, nothing relevant seemed to come up.

If I'm not mistaken, in the original a character would roll against its own pick pocket score. In the EEs, each item slot has a set required score that is compared to the character's pick pocket skill. If it's lower, you get a message saying the target has no items that can be stolen by a cutpurse of your skill.

[Bartimaeus]

Oh, so basically easy mode with no chance for hostility for failure? That makes a bit of sense gameplay-wise, but of course less so from a realism standpoint (and I'm not sure how P&P handles it, to be honest).

[Glam Vrock]

2 hours ago, Kilivitz said:

If I'm not mistaken, in the original a character would roll against its own pick pocket score. In the EEs, each item slot has a set required score that is compared to the character's pick pocket skill. If it's lower, you get a message saying the target has no items that can be stolen by a cutpurse of your skill.

This is an improvement. In the original games, there was no reason to invest in Pick Pockets because you could just reload until you succeeded. If you really want to change it back so that this becomes an option again, that's fine, but at that point you might as well just give yourself 250 in Pick Pockets. Save some time.

Also:

2 hours ago, Kilivitz said:

Not so much replying to this individual post as picking it as an example of the few replies here dismissing the whole thread as a nonsensical exercise in grognardism.

I find it disingenuous to treat "rolling back Beamdog's changes" as an all-or-nothing proposition that defeats its own purpose as long as one can go play the originals.

The point isn't "just go play the originals." The point is, does it really matter? This thread is temnix asking "Heh, why don't you losers go mod out this Beamdog garbage, if you care about the community so much?" Everyone has their own answers. My answer is that Beamdog's changes aren't a big deal, and can largely be ignored if you don't like them.

[Kilivitz]

2 hours ago, Glam Vrock said:

This is an improvement. In the original games, there was no reason to invest in Pick Pockets because you could just reload until you succeeded. If you really want to change it back so that this becomes an option again, that's fine, but at that point you might as well just give yourself 250 in Pick Pockets. Save some time.

In other words, the new mechanic prevents players from just reloading until they succeed (A.K.A. save scumming), therefore it's an improvement.

But is it, really? Consider this: the ability to save scum is an inevitable side effect of an integral aspect of BG's gameplay (you can save/load whenever, except when in combat). There's no way to prevent it altogether unless through a radical design change such as replacing the save-whenever system with a checkpoint or auto-save-only system. 

Granted, it doesn't have to be a slippery slope. Perhaps only partially eliminating save scumming is already an improvement. Hell, maybe they should take it further - no more rolling to learn a spell from a scroll, since you can just reload and try again (or save time and give yourself a 25 in INT).

I don't agree with that, however. I come from the point of view that BD shouldn't fix that which isn't broken, and I wouldn't say a mechanic is broken just because it allows for save scumming, which harkens back to the beginning of my argument.

2 hours ago, Glam Vrock said:

The point isn't "just go play the originals." The point is, does it really matter? This thread is temnix asking "Heh, why don't you losers go mod out this Beamdog garbage, if you care about the community so much?" Everyone has their own answers. My answer is that Beamdog's changes aren't a big deal, and can largely be ignored if you don't like them.

Far from me to deny that the way he put his argument is at best, obnoxious and at worst, incoherent.

My answer, however, is different from yours - I wish Beamdog had been a lot more conservative and focused on preserving rather than changing the BG games, and I would love if there were more ways to bring the EEs closer to the originals while maintaining certain technical improvements. As I said earlier, a best-of-both-worlds version.

Of course, I'm not saying that my opinion is worth more than yours. The only thing I had a problem with was your caricature of EE-naysayers as irrational neckbeards, something I see as reductionist on a topic that has a lot of nuance and room for discussion.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Kilivitz

[Bartimaeus]

They could've also made stuff optional. Anyone remember how the tablet version of BG1 had the additional NPCs and crap as DLC buy-ins, while the PC version you didn't get a choice and *had* to pay more for stuff you didn't want? Whoops. Not paying money for yer intrusive fanfiction, sorry bubs.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[InKal]

On 5/13/2020 at 9:12 PM, temnix said:

There are so many modders on these boards, and almost nobody cares about making anything that's new. Then how about working on what's old? You have many years of experience. The engine of the Enhanced Edition is far superior to the old one, but lots of players stick with the originals because they don't like what Beamdog has changed. Why don't you old-timers sit down and roll them back? The ones that can be rolled back. The interface isn't going away, neither is what I heard about the difference in click response speed, that the mouse is livelier in the original than in EE. But those changes are a tiny minority. Everything else you can counter: do away with all the hand-holding and "ease" Beamdog has put in, scimitars +2 lying on the ground, strange proficiencies - you know what Beamdog did, and all changes are listed on the Wiki anyway. Get together and correct Beamdog instead of bitching and moaning about their terrible decisions or ignoring the technology where the future of these games lies - the foreseeable future anyway. I don't know what those Project Infinity people are up to, but are you going to keep players hanging and missing new mods for several more years until you finally invite them to something too obscure for most? Make a rollback mod, obvious to everybody! That will be a service to the "community" you so cherish.

dude, it was actually community who made BGEE, only the name was a little different then - BGTutu IIRC

[Glam Vrock]

13 hours ago, Kilivitz said:

In other words, the new mechanic prevents players from just reloading until they succeed (A.K.A. save scumming), therefore it's an improvement.

But is it, really? Consider this: the ability to save scum is an inevitable side effect of an integral aspect of BG's gameplay (you can save/load whenever, except when in combat). There's no way to prevent it altogether unless through a radical design change such as replacing the save-whenever system with a checkpoint or auto-save-only system. 

Granted, it doesn't have to be a slippery slope. Perhaps only partially eliminating save scumming is already an improvement. Hell, maybe they should take it further - no more rolling to learn a spell from a scroll, since you can just reload and try again (or save time and give yourself a 25 in INT).

It's not about eliminating save scumming. If that were true, they'd remove the RNG altogether and have you automatically succeed if your Pick Pocket is high enough. It's about encouraging an investment. There’s already incentive to raise your intelligence beyond the RNG mechanic of spell scribing. Lore bonus, maximum spell level, number of spells known per level.

Successful pickpocketing, with low skill, is nothing but an exercise of rolling the dice over and over until you succeed. There's no strategy. There's no challenge. Only at high levels does it become reliable…which is also when you start passing Beamdog’s skill barriers. If I dump a load of points in Pick Pockets, only to find that any thief can steal anything given enough attempts, I’m gonna feel pretty cheated and wish I’d spent those points on more essential skills like locks and traps. Bigger rewards for bigger investments is a good incentive, and makes the skill more worthwhile.

You say you want a “best of both worlds” situation, but is the pure RNG pickpocketing really the best of the original games? Or is it just what you’re used to?

 

13 hours ago, Kilivitz said:

Of course, I'm not saying that my opinion is worth more than yours. The only thing I had a problem with was your caricature of EE-naysayers as irrational neckbeards, something I see as reductionist on a topic that has a lot of nuance and room for discussion.

The caricature is of temnix, not everyone who dislikes the EEs. If you prefer old style pickpocketing, that’s fine. I maintain that what we have now is better, but personal preference doesn’t have to be objective. It’s a change that you have no choice but to play along with. That’s a valid reason to want a mod.

However, when you start demanding rollbacks for things that can be ignored or even disabled in the options menu, or claiming that these relatively minor changes are somehow ruining the experience for new players, or accusing everyone who likes (or isn’t bothered by) The New Stuff of being a fanboy, then yeah, I’d say you’re pretty irrational, neckbeard or no neckbeard.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Glam Vrock

[subtledoctor]

14 hours ago, Kilivitz said:

The only thing I had a problem with was your caricature of EE-naysayers as irrational neckbeards

I think the point of the caricature was: here was a case of someone saying, in essence, "I dislike the EEs, and I blame all you people for not fixing them for me!" Which is bad enough and nonsensical enough on its own.  Somehow, rather than saying "hey buddy, go screw yourself!" people asked to discuss the issue with more detail.  And he still couldn't engage in a productive discussion of his own poorly-conceived idea.  Only at that point did the neckbeard-taunting begin. 

You don't have to like changes made by the EEs.  You can be in favor of creating mods to change what you don't like.  But you don't come around and blame the people here for not having 1) read your mind and 2) invested their own good time, in making those mods for you.

Edited June 18, 2020 by subtledoctor

[temnix]

How do I unsubscribe from this thread or get you people to stop gabbing? I'm sick of getting notifications that one of you had another brilliant snippet to contribute.

[Glam Vrock]

Fanboy coming back atcha! My roommate who won't eat vegetables says that I do not and will never know shit about Baldur's Gate, that I am a weapons-grade plutonium scrub emitting harmful beta-male radiation, that I should go back to Animal Crossing with all the other eunuchs, and that my girlfriend is a lying whore who's probably getting railed by that black guy from two doors over. Anyone want to release some quick fixes to help me out?

[Bartimaeus]

34 minutes ago, temnix said:

How do I unsubscribe from this thread or get you people to stop gabbing? I'm sick of getting notifications that one of you had another brilliant snippet to contribute.

Here, follow these very simple instructions:

Spoiler

 

[jastey]

Please, play nice everyone.

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, jastey said:

Please, play nice everyone.

Whoops! Telling everyone else that's trying to actually have a discussion to shut up because the colossal burden of receiving a few notifications is just too much to handle just didn't engender a kind or empathetic response from me for some reason, .

[Guest guest]

I would love to have a mod for EET that has all the following features:

1) EE npcs disabled + items removed\added into store
2) Restored old movies
3) Removed Black pit to make it not appear at all even in the menu
4) Sod disabled without having to actually do anything at all - all the references removed.

I know that there are single mods that do the job above, but having to do 200 clicks for something that I can get freely by installing classic bg is too good.

[Cahir]

25 minutes ago, Guest guest said:

I would love to have a mod for EET that has all the following features:

1) EE npcs disabled + items removed\added into store
2) Restored old movies
3) Removed Black pit to make it not appear at all even in the menu
4) Sod disabled without having to actually do anything at all - all the references removed.

I know that there are single mods that do the job above, but having to do 200 clicks for something that I can get freely by installing classic bg is too good.

Why bother to play EET at all? Just grab BGT and have fun with it.