Neverwinter Night for Baldur's Gate mod

[Roberciiik]

I think paladin84 is referring to this post: 

 

 

The best solution would be to replace the third-party resources (mainly area graphics?) by dedicated new ones if an area designer is willing to create all new locations from the scratch using free textures and models, and then original NWN design of the areas could be used.

[mickabouille]

Well, as far as copyright is concerned, the *scenario* is as  copyrighted as the assets.

As are the spells, icons, descriptions etc that iwdification pulls from iwd.

As are some models from nwn/other games used by some IE mods(I think infinity animation does this for example).

Modding is, and has been from a long time, used to borrowing from everywhere. And that puts you at some risk from holders.

I don't say nobody should care. Those that maintain or host should evaluate their risk.

 

[Acifer]

8 minutes ago, mickabouille said:

As are the spells, icons, descriptions etc that iwdification pulls from iwd.

As are some models from nwn/other games used by some IE mods(I think infinity animation does this for example).

Beamdog made it pretty clear that it is OK for modders to cross-use assets from their games. A quote from Dee Pennyway, former community manager:

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"Speaking to your question about using IWD:EE art in BG:EE mods, because they're both from games that Beamdog produced, we're okay with you using files and assets from either game in mods for the other."

Link: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/673869/#Comment_673869

In my question, I was referring to assets from other games.

[mickabouille]

Yes, nice, but some of them probably started using assets before 2015 and this explicit permission. And this probably doesn't cover for example importing from iwd2 (?)

Well, I feel like were're parasiting this thread so this probably should continue in a dedicated one.

[subtledoctor]

Nobody is making money off this. Beamdog owns the rights to the NWN story/dialogue/characters, and is fine with use if its game resources in mods. If the owners of the rights to area graphics from Pillars of Eternity, Lionheart, or whatever reach out and say stop using those resources, then people should probably stop distributing the mod. But this mod has had fairly splashy press coverage - more than most - and no one has complained. Corporations aren’t exactly shy about sending cease-and-desist letters when they want to. I don’t think it is unreasonable, therefore, to assume that silence denotes assent in this case. 

IANAL etc. 

Edited March 14 by subtledoctor

[Daulmakan]

9 hours ago, Acifer said:

In my question, I was referring to assets from other games.

I don't see why this would be an issue NOW. The Bigg Characters uses soundsets from Half-Life and Team Fortress (both by Valve, not a IE friendly company by default like Beamdog) and that has been around for 14 years, to name but the first one that came to my mind. Pretty sure one or more of the early mega mods like The Darkest Days, Shadows Over Soubar, etc etc lifted assets from Arcanum and other games as well. And those are ancient.

[Incrementis]

17 hours ago, Roberciiik said:

The best solution would be to replace the third-party resources (mainly area graphics?) by dedicated new ones if an area designer is willing to create all new locations from the scratch using free textures and models, and then original NWN design of the areas could be used.

I would recommend this solution because adopting assets from other company games increases the chances of a mod being removed, especially if it becomes more popular. Such an event can be very demotivating and ultimately harm the modding community.

If you want an example of how fan project closure works, google: "Pokémon’s Former Chief Lawyer On Shutting Down Fan Games & Honeymoon Business Deals"

This article contains the following insight:

"

LP: Before we wrap up, as a games journalist who has covered the scene extensively, this is something I've always wondered and have never got the chance to ask: how does The Pokémon Company handle Cease & Desist letters with regards to fan projects? How did you find them, and where did you draw the line on what's allowed and what the company thinks needs to be shut down?

DM: Short answer: thanks to you folks. I would be sitting in my office minding my own business when someone from the company would send me a link to a news article, or I would stumble across it myself. I teach Entertainment Law at the University of Washington and say this to my students: the worst thing on earth is when your "fan" project gets press, because now I know about you.

LP: Oh. Oh no. 

"

[jastey]

Using IP from sources that are not BeamDog's games is not only a problem in this community, it is a legal Copyright infringement, period.
Saying that other mods did it is not an argument. The same would go for saying that it was necessary to finish the project. That is not an argument, either.

It is true that this was different in the early stages of the modding scene. This, also, is not a justification to do it now. The community has grown and we purged IP content of other sources from mods because of the possible legal problems.

It is correct that there is IP even in G3 mods. Where IP is used, it is usually stated clearly in the readmes, in combination with the statement that the offending content (or the whole mod) will be removed immediately if requested. It is a grey area and we hope that this will be enough to prevent legal problems.

Just silently using IP from other sources, some even very recent games is something we tried to leave behind. Also, what we do not do is using many or large assets, or copyrighted portraits, etc. The only exception probably being Tyris Flare, which uses a portrait of - Tyris Flare.

IE modding happened always in a very grey area. Experience shows that there is a lot of patience all around if it comes to assets used in IE mods; PPE is a good example for a mod of numerous copyright infringements that triggered no reactions so far. Thinking that this means that we can do and use whatever we want is not the right answer, it's the opposite. I do not know what it will take to stir this up to something ugly. I only know that if you kick the dog enough times it might eventually bite back. Or, in this case, if you start kicking new dogs, too. IE modding is now tolerated, even promoted by the official game distributor, we even have a go to use assets from all BeamDog games. This is fantastic!

I will not even start about the topic of respecting other artists work. We had a rather extended discussion about whether IA content (not deepfakes, just IA generated content) would be ethically ok or not. Now we are talking about actual IP of other sources, and I see a general "oh, why not" that surprises me.

Using IP from all over the place is something we left behind and seeing recent mods released that do not seem to care about these legal aspects is a huge step backwards.

[subtledoctor]

First, I am not a copyright lawyer. That said, my understanding if copyright law is that it is not nearly as black-and-white as you are making it out to be. You say the use of technical assets from other games “is copyright infringement, period” but two paragraphs you say it is “a gray area.” 

So before anything else, it is worth being precise, and non-melodramatic, with terms. If the use of assets is not an actionable violation, then it is not infringement. It may not be cool, or ethical, but that does not necessarily mean it violates a copyright. 

Where does this project land? I don’t know. But unless you are a copyright lawyer and you do know the answer, don’t use terms that assume the answer. 

Finally, copyright law differs by jurisdiction. And not for nothing, this project if I’m not mistaken was developed in Russia by regulars on the Arcane Coast forums. It is not hosted by G3, not affiliated with G3, not promoted by G3. (To the extent G3 does host copyright violations, G3 can get its own house in order, at its discretion.) This is a place for discussion, and at least where I am, discussion of copyright violations is protected to a greater degree than copyrights themselves. 

I would not develop this mod, but in the absence of a clear answer as to whether 1) it is actually infringing, and 2) the rights owners actually care, I will not scruple to avoid using or discussing it. (The PPE mod was different in several respects, I think it involved more egregious violations of artists’ interests.)

Edited March 15 by subtledoctor

[paladin84]

4 hours ago, jastey said:

Just silently using IP from other sources, some even very recent games is something we tried to leave behind.

I hope it was a general statement (about doing something silently), not a statement about NWNForBG. For this mod I mentioned in a very first post here that is uses assets from other games. I stated later that I will remove this mod immediately of I have any notice about it from right owners. I will add this note to README now.

[lynx]

You could also add a line to the readme that this mod is meant for people who own NWN and PoE. Just for better taste, doesn't change anything legally.

[Daulmakan]

6 hours ago, jastey said:

Using IP from sources that are not BeamDog's games is not only a problem in this community, it is a legal Copyright infringement, period.
Saying that other mods did it is not an argument. The same would go for saying that it was necessary to finish the project. That is not an argument, either.

It's not an argument for saying it's alright, it's an argument for saying this isn't a red line that has been crossed just about now. And that the consequences for such actions (infringement notwithstanding) were (as it seems from behind the counter, at least) null.

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It is correct that there is IP even in G3 mods. Where IP is used, it is usually stated clearly in the readmes, in combination with the statement that the offending content (or the whole mod) will be removed immediately if requested.

But of course, this should go without saying. Frankly, the only time I was ever concerned witht the prospect of legal repercussions for the IE community was when Anvil went behind a paywall (sorry, "donation based"...), and that seemed to turn up nothing.

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It is true that this was different in the early stages of the modding scene. This, also, is not a justification to do it now. The community has grown and we purged IP content of other sources from mods because of the possible legal problems.

Uh, no? Ive just mentioned a mod with another game's assets that is still available in SHS. Pretty sure there's more out there.

Quote

 

Just silently using IP from other sources, some even very recent games is something we tried to leave behind. Also, what we do not do is using many or large assets, or copyrighted portraits, etc. The only exception probably being Tyris Flare, which uses a portrait of - Tyris Flare.

This is even worse, because it uses and represents CHARACTERS from another game/IP. Almost 5 years and counting and is still up (was happy to play it upon release, happy to see it's still there).  

Quote

I will not even start about the topic of respecting other artists work. We had a rather extended discussion about whether IA content (not deepfakes, just IA generated content) would be ethically ok or not. Now we are talking about actual IP of other sources, and I see a general "oh, why not" that surprises me.

But you've just mentioned Tyris Flare in passing as if it was OK...

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Using IP from all over the place is something we left behind and seeing recent mods released that do not seem to care about these legal aspects is a huge step backwards.

This has been happening and is happening right now as we speak with already hosted mods, why is it different if a new mod does it? They should be restricted to a different standard because they arrived late to the party? Again, I perfectly understand if you don't like or think it should change, but it's nothing NEW.

Edited March 15 by Daulmakan

[jastey]

2 hours ago, paladin84 said:

I hope it was a general statement (about doing something silently), not a statement about NWNForBG.

Yes, it was a general statement, like my whole post. I do strongly suggest to explicitly list the used sources, though.

I do find the use of several area graphics quite excessive, also in general. To put it simple: If the mod needs other people's IP because it can't exist otherwise, then the whole concept of the mod is questionable.

28 minutes ago, Daulmakan said:

But you've just mentioned Tyris Flare in passing as if it was OK...

No, it's not "ok" imho. But the Tyris Flare mod does one thing other mods do not: it doesn't use assets from Tyris Flare for something else, in the means of other content. It waves a flagg saying heyho, Tyris Flare assets used for a Tyris Flare adaption, look here!

With regard to the old mods at SHS: maybe there are still there and noone said anything because - noone said anything? I am not aware of which assets are used where, and I do not have the time to go look through all mods to identify what is original area art and what is not. I can't even recognize all NWN resources as such. Which is also a good point for stating what is used where in the readme, it will at least spare us surprises.

[Acifer]

1 hour ago, Daulmakan said:

it's an argument for saying this isn't a red line that has been crossed just about now.

Well, at least for the author of the article I mentioned, a thick red line seems to have been crossed. From what I can tell, the author seems to be an experienced writer. And that's what concerns me. Or how do you explain the second headline of the article:

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It's like a weird Baldur's ROM hack, and swipes assets from a much more recent Obsidian RPG

…or that one:

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And that's far from the only borrowing from a 2010s RPG here. […] Now I know: Balabokhin mostly chopped and screwed maps from the Pillars of Eternity games, porting them back into the Infinity Engine that originally inspired Obsidian's RPG revival. 

…or that one:

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I stepped out into the Copperlane district of Pillars 1's Defiance Bay, flipped with an image editor mirror tool to stand in for Neverwinter's city core. The city's other districts are similarly tweaked, flipped, or otherwise modified zones from Defiance Bay or Pillars 2's Neketaka. 

I've been involved with BG modding for nearly 25 years, but I've never read an article like this. We can only hope that no one from Obsidian's (or better Microsoft's) legal department ever reads this article.

I don't want to put the mod down, but I think the argument that the mod is too insignificant to cause problems is the wrong way round. Why are you doing all this work then? You want the mod to be successful! And making NWN available for BG2 is basically a good idea.

I would rather recommend first putting all efforts into invalidating the criticisms mentioned in the article. Of course that takes work. You don't have to completely redo everything, but pretending that the article and the mentioned problems don’t exist and just continue as before is imho the wrong approach. The more work you put into it, the more the mod will be noticed, and the more likely it is that someone will read the article (EDIT: or he otherwise notices the issues) that could lead to trouble.

Edited March 15 by Acifer

[Daulmakan]

19 minutes ago, Acifer said:

Well, at least for the author of the article I mentioned, a thick red line seems to have been crossed. From what I can tell, the author seems to be an experienced writer. And that's what concerns me.

I'm sorry I can't allay your fears, but I won't lift an eyebrow based off of the opinion of some random gaming journalist. Most of them are trash anyway.

IMO, Microsoft has bigger stuff to worry about and probably doesn't need the extra negative points with their own public that go along with persecuting non-profit modders. Furthermore, they might even consider this as beneficial ("hey, those maps look nice, why don't I check out the original game ?"). Fun fact, I pledged to the Kickstarter and loved the maps as I played it,, but didn't recognize them at first as belonging to PoE. What a snoozefest that was.