SR V4 Open Beta (last update 25 October 2018)

[kreso]

Imo a good way to determine spell's usefulness and unique effect is to ask a question - "would I select it for a Sorcerer character?"

So far TS and Spellstrike win over AI for me, by a league.

Agreed. My picks would be:

 

1. Chain Contingency

2. Freedom

3. AI

4. PW:Kill

5. If I'm feeling awesome, Shapechange. If I'm feeling cheesy lucky, Wish. Otherwise, Spellstrike.

 

The only way I'd now choose TS over AI is fighter/mage dual combination.

[Jarno Mikkola]

 

So far TS and Spellstrike win over AI for me, by a league.

Agreed. My picks would be:

I'll just point out that the list is totally opposite of than what Ardanis chose ... but I have a doubt that I will ever get understood.

[Ardanis]

Well, if we were to compare TS against AI, the latter is indeed better when it comes to TS-immune enemies (all the four of them) and can free up a precious 6th level slot where competition is the most tight. Whereas TS works better against powerful wizard opponents, giving 2-3 spell casts for free.

 

But part of the problem is that weapon immunity spells are too many

 

Another shot:

- Mantle (good save bonus)

- Protection from Weapons

- Improved Mantle / Absolute Immunity (+20 saves / immunity)

- Mass Protection from Weapons

 

Lvl 9 is less overkill, and AI is only one level lower.

[kreso]

Ardanis, I hope you know how Mantles/AI are handled in latest beta....

[Demivrgvs]

@Arda, like Kreso says I fear you lost a few changes while you were away. See below.

 

My 2 cents:

 

Protection from Weapons & Mantle spells

I'm all for removing/replacing Protection from Normal Weapons as I guess V4 buff (can stack with PfMW) still doesn't make it remotely appealing (my idea was to replace it with a defensive Alteration spell). Concept-wise I don't know if Fire Shield granting immunity to non-magical weapons makes any sense, while I may try to justify Acid Sheath with something (e.g. it would corrode normal weapon?).

 

I'd like to point few things: I never liked Protection from Magic Weapons and the mechanic around it, but it has to stay for AI sake imo; the only reason I didn't add here immunity to non-magical weapons is aVENGER's AI.

 

I turned Mantle into an extremely powerful Fire Shield variant, so powerful that right now attacking it is suicide imo.

 

Long ago I do suggested to turn Improved Mantle into a mass spell but it seemed the vast majority of players were against it. I'm saying this only because now you guys are suggesting to add this feature to Absolute Immunity. Anyway, if beta testers can give me some feedback on what I did here I actually love the current Moment of Prescience (+20 AC/saves - similar to one of Arda's suggested tweaks) and if it works well for AI it allow us to remove a useless almost-copy of Mantle while adding an extremely powerful spell to the Divination school (which is super cool imo).

 

When it comes to Absolute Immunity, with the current buffs Kreso isn't the only beta tester who's telling me it has become as appealing as Time Stop if not more in certain cases.

 

 

Improved Invisibility

...the whole idea that II people can be target by attacks but not spells is kind of weird. I'd love to make this a bit more organic: maybe be targetable by both, if and only if you give your position away...

That's pretty much how it works within SRV4, though you need See Invisibility (2nd lvl) or True Seeing active to target the II creature with spells.

 

Or maybe a chance to go full invisible every 12 seconds, and a chance to become semi-invisible every 6 seconds...

The latter is not doable. I kinda like it, if we could make it so that you become fully invisible again only when you are not giving your position away for that round. Making it grant full invisibility again ever x seconds could still be fine but I don't like that you could get fully invisible a split second after swinging your heavy flail 5 feet away from your target.

 

It shouldn't ruin the AI because See Invisibility and True Seeing would constantly reveal the position every round, and SCS loves to use Oracle which fully dispel II.

 

Not sure how this tweak would affect wannabe II spells such as Shadow Door and Mislead. I would probably not apply it to them, but that would complicate the spell description.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Demivrgvs

[subtledoctor]

I never liked Protection from Magic Weapons and the mechanic around it, but it has to stay for AI sake imo; the only reason I didn't add here immunity to non-magical weapons is aVENGER's AI.

Well, you could turn it into full Weapon Immunity, but add a check for aVENGER's AI, and if it's present then keep vulnerability to normal weapons. Though maybe you don't like the idea of SR not being 100% consistent. In any event my main criticism is that, in either case, it should be higher level.

 

I turned Mantle into an extremely powerful Fire Shield variant, so powerful that right now attacking it is suicide imo.

I don't love this in concept (and I don't love things like Globe of Blades, so maybe this is just my personal bias) but I haven't tested it yet so I'll reserve judgment.

 

I did here I actually love the current Moment of Prescience

I forgot that MoP takes over the Imp. Mantle slot. MoP is fantastic, don't change it.

 

That's pretty much how it works within SRV4, though you need See Invisibility (2nd lvl) or True Seeing active to target the II creature with spells... It shouldn't ruin the AI because See Invisibility and True Seeing would constantly reveal the position every round

Demi, I don't know if I've ever discussed this, but imho this doesn't work very well. Repeating the TS every round lets a player go invisible and do a backstab, and certain at-will invisible enemies like SCS/aTweaks air elementals and invisible stalkers can all but ignore it, rendering it a wasted spell. I have always modded vanilla TS to work every 2-3 seconds instead of every 6... I consider it necessary, almost a bug-fix given how the spell is meant to work.

 

Btw if True Sight only works for the caster now, doesn't that leave a gap to be filled by a high-level Div spell, to work like the old True Sight? I.e. Oracle every 6 (or 3!) seconds? Illusion Purge, or Sphere of Truth, or something.

 

Not sure how this tweak would affect wannabe II spells such as Shadow Door and Mislead. I would probably not apply it to them, but that would complicate the spell description.

FWIW I think all of these spells should be 100% identical in effect (I mean the II part of the effect.) Anything else confuses the player.

 

(Though, I could see taking II out of Mislead altogether, and only granting normal Invisibility... if the clone is meant to be a distraction, why would you give yourself away by attacking someone?)

Edited March 7, 2015 by subtledoctor

[Jarno Mikkola]

PfMW - Well, you could turn it into full Weapon Immunity, but add a check for aVENGER's AI,

Have you any idea how OP that would be ? OK, if you set either the casting timer to 9 and make it not include-able to the the Contingencies and Sequencers .. or set the duration to only 6 seconds( = 1 round). Otherwise it's original Absolute Immunity, except that it's a level 6 spell, not 9th. Which actually makes it even better in many respects. As it's harder to remove. Yes, this is very bad in the original game with Dragons & Liches, they get AI with a level 6 spell... Yes at the end of the SoA, the player gets the constant PfNW ability, but by then doesn't really get anything out of it, so it's not OP for him.

If you have this bad ideas about it, you should leave the spell unchanged.

[kreso]

 

PfMW - Well, you could turn it into full Weapon Immunity, but add a check for aVENGER's AI,

Have you any idea how OP that would be ?

I never switch to normal weapons, so the spell works this way for me anyway since 2007. If immunity to weapon damage is OP at level 6, then one can say immunity to Acid/Fire etc. which lasts for turns is far more OP at level 5. I've never seen people complaining about these spells.

It's 4 rounds (out of which you can use 3 to cast spells), dispelable, breachable, or you can simply use damage/disabling spells to harm the mage using it.

Original AI is probably the shittiest spell ever given it's level, since it was worse than PfMW.

Dragons didn't ever "get AI" by casting a 6th level spell, and with current SR, neither do Liches. There's, contrary to what you wrote, zero difference in removing AI and PfMW.

[subtledoctor]

^ what kreso said. PfMW cast by a mob already immune to normal weapons (which SCS *LOVES* to do... as do players after finishing SoA) is far more OP than Abs. Imm., and at a far lower spell level.

 

I think I said multiple times that I think it's OP for 6th level in either incarnation. And I've said multiple times that I don't actually like it and would prefer to replace it with something other than weapon immunity - like Improved Stoneskin.

 

So maybe read the thread before you start insulting people...

Edited March 7, 2015 by subtledoctor

[geg_Ma3gau]

 

I think i ve secret worded imp invisible opponents without TS.

Probably because you have that SCS component. kreso is describing how SR works if you don't use that SCS component. In that case you would change around the order of the steps in your plan, to (I think) [3], [1], [4].

 

PFMW? yes mages are powerful, but you re supposed to live long enough to be able to tear down their defences and destroy them.

The spell (pfmw) is meh, since it's countered by normal weapons (apart on select few oponnents immune to them and using pfmw). My idea was to make this a "protection from weapons" and make caster really invurnerable to all weapons, but Demi doesn't like it.

I've already expressed my opinions on PfMW and I don't want to thread-jack here, so I'll spoiler my response:

 

 

I know it's not perfect, and you can tear down protections, and it has a gaping hole you take advantage of. But I really don't feel like dragging nonmagical weapons everywhere I go, just for this use. That's not "tactical," it's just annoying.

 

And setting aside that "tactic," (not even to mention what it does to AI attackers, who can't switch weapons), in normal playing the spell is basically as effective as the vanilla 9th level Absolute Immunity. That's not cool.

 

kreso I totally get your idea to simply make vanilla Absolute Immunity a 6th level spell and improve all the spells above it. And SR's Abs. Imm. is great. But I'm with Demi, I still think it's too much for 6th level.

 

My current idea is, change druids' Ironskins name to Stoneskin (just cosmetic), and then use the "Ironskins" spell name for an improved SS for wizards, replacing PfMW. Have it grant skins, and set *all* damage immunities (physical and elemental) to 100%, and then drop by 25% every 2-3 rounds. Then use vanilla Improved Mantle at 7th level, vanilla Abs. Imm. at 8th level, and SR's new Abs. Imm. at 9th level.

 

It only fully makes sense if you use "concentration check on damage" and "no spell disruption on zero damage" from TobEx. But, I do, so there you go.

 

Ok i understand now. Is this behaviour of Spell rev TS component regarding targeting invis mages compatible with SCS AI?

Basically, i might want to stick with SCS behaviour on this one im not sure. What are the pros and cons of each one of them? Seems to me, the spell rev TS behaviour will make it even harder to take out mages and it may be unneccessary.

Edited March 7, 2015 by geg_Ma3gau

[subtledoctor]

From what I gather it's perfectly compatible. It's possible you'll want to adjust your tactics a bit... but that's what this game is all about.

[Jarno Mikkola]

If immunity to weapon damage is OP at level 6, then one can say immunity to Acid/Fire etc. which lasts for turns is far more OP at level 5.

Actually no. See there isn't one class that is unable to kill&affect a non-troll opponent that has that protection. Remember, the game has 8 types of damage that can kill an opponent(plus poison), the physical covers 3 of them. If it were: Ice, Fire, Acid, Lightning and Magic damage immunity at close to these levels, then we could talk about this, but it's not. That's the RARE green scrolls only. Or partial +10%-50% bonuses that need multiple sources to get the protection from.

 

Original AI is probably the shittiest spell ever given it's level, since it was worse than PfMW.

Well you are making my point stronger here, yes, the Absolute Immunity spell is bad, it's not actually worse than the PfMW, if they were both at the same level, but PfMW being a level 6 spell makes it just way much better. Edited March 7, 2015 by Jarno Mikkola

[Icezera]

Ok, so I'm not sure exactly how it's working, but mages that go invisible are usually revealed to me when I use True Sight or they simply reveal themselves. I can't be sure whether Non-Detection plays a part since I can't remember the battle logs for each battle, but I'm having no problems right now. Once enemies are visible (but still considered invisible for purposes of targeting), I can tear down their spell protections and then hit them with a True Sight to make them targetable by Breach.

 

Secondly, I am highly in favor of keeping Protection from Magical Weapons. It is essential to keeping enemy mages alive. Without that spell, they simply die to fighters since there is absolutely no reason to even tear down their spell protections if a fighter can just hit them. Sure stoneskin might take some time to burn through and such, but it makes the game far too easy which is not something I like given how easy vanilla BG is anyway. It is easily countered and fits as a 6th level spell.

 

Finally, I don't understand the complaints of people who say they don't want to carry around normal weapons. I thought this game's combat was all about thinking ahead, bringing the right items to prepare, and using your items to their full effect. A normal weapon can be quick-slotted so it doesn't even take up space in your inventory. And I don't understand the logic behind disliking the option to carry around normal weapons. If you hate them that much, simply go the long way of tearing down each and every mage protection which is easy anyway since you have so many more options in Spell Revisions compared to vanilla SCS.

 

Secondly, if you dislike carrying around normal weapons, why use your inventory for anything but loot? Normal weapons are not 'inferior' they are an alternative tactical option. Otherwise, stat modifying potions are 'inferior' since a caster can replicate the effects, wands and summoning items are 'inferior' because they are just mage spells in item forms, and heck, even scrolls are 'inferior' since they just take up inventory space to cast lower level versions of spells you could simply memorize! But we know that isn't true. Stat modifying potions are important since they allow instant use in battle to change stats like giving 50% magical resist, especially to non-caster classes allowing your casters to do something else. Wands and summoning items are useful because of their flexibility and allowing one to memorize other useful spells and scrolls accomplish the same effect to a greater degree. Thus, normal weapons are also a tactical option as valid counterplay to enemy mages and I don't understand anyone who wants to get rid of counterplay in favor of simply turning Protection from Magical Weapons into full weapon immunity.

 

Spell Revisions + SCS is already much easier than plain SCS so I would be opposed to any changes making the game easier.

[Ardanis]

Ardanis, I hope you know how Mantles/AI are handled in latest beta....

Guilty as charged

That's what I get for abandoning forums for too long

 

 

PfMW - Well, you could turn it into full Weapon Immunity, but add a check for aVENGER's AI,

Have you any idea how OP that would be ?

 

It would be the same as it always was, but full immunity will fix the issue with aVENGER's AI, which exploits PFMW's current vulnerability to normal weapons. It should never have been doing such a thing in the first place

 

 

Secondly, if you dislike carrying around normal weapons, why use your inventory for anything but loot? Normal weapons are not 'inferior' they are an alternative tactical option.

Normal weapons are just too far specialized to be a well-designed balance element.

 

I think the frustration some people (well, me) have over "must keep vulnerable to normal weapons" thing, it prevents from going a simple route of make PfMW fully immune and forgetting about liches, monks, ToB PCs and other non-existent (to those like me) issues.

 

Of course, I would most definitely add an .ini option for purist players to toggle it, before anything else.

 

A normal weapon can be quick-slotted so it doesn't even take up space in your inventory.

 

The problem is, I don't have enough quick slots when IR is installed

Edited March 7, 2015 by Ardanis

[Jarno Mikkola]

It would be the same as it always was, but full immunity will fix the issue with aVENGER's AI, which exploits PFMW's current vulnerability to normal weapons. It should never have been doing such a thing in the first place

OK, now I understand, you have no idea what a good rule system actually consists on. And no concept of what your rules will do to the game(for other players besides yourself).