SR V4 Open Beta (last update 25 October 2018)

[Ardanis]

I am not exactly alone in my feelings towards PfMW/normal weapons, so it's not just me being an odd one. While alternative tactical options is always good, it is specifically PfMW/normal weapons that was a really bad example of old-school design.

Besides I do have an idea what a good rule system is, and AD&D 2 in not a good rule system. A compilation of random rules thrown together, great for the feeling of nostalgia - sure, but never a system. It's not the strong point of early editions.

 

Also you might have missed the smiley.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Ardanis

[subtledoctor]

Man, Jarno is being unusually... pointed, today. Ease back, buddy.

 

Finally, I don't understand the complaints of people who say they don't want to carry around normal weapons.

...

Spell Revisions + SCS is already much easier than plain SCS so I would be opposed to any changes making the game easier.

Carrying normal weapons isn't interesting or tactical; it's boring and annoying. Plus, IIRC SCS enemies will *not* switch to normal weapons. So it works out to be a *huge* advantage for the player. Which runs counter to the most basic aim of SCS. No one is talking about making the game easier. We're talking about helping the AI and making the game work better.

 

But this is neither here nor there. Demi has said he doesn't like the way PfMW works, but changing it is beyond what SR and to do. As Ardanis said in another thread, SR has had to give up good ideas in order to stay focused on its core mission. To quote Steve Jobs, good design means saying a thousand nos for every yes.

 

It falls to some other modder to take SCS + SR as a starting point, a foundation, and make changes that SR can't. If only there were a mod designed to be installed on top of them, to give players the choice to go that one extra step, to make more drastic changes and bend a couple rules in the pursuit of better gameplay (at least, 'better' according to one's personal preferences)...

 

Oh wait, that's me, I'm doing that.

 

So Demi don't sweat it, there are other mods to pick up the ideas that are too crazy for SR. Some day I'll figure out a viable solution to to PfMW problem. It might be as simple as changing the spell level.

 

Meantime, for purposes of testing gameplay with SR, at the moment I'm much more interested in what people think make the True Seeing timer trigger more often...

 

(EDIT - Icezera we posted at the same time. My first paragraph after the quote addresses what you're saying. Meantime I really, really didn't mean to pull this thread down this particular rabbit hole - it started out with a joke. If you want to continue discussion of PfMW it should probably be in a new thread. Lord knows there's enough potential discussion for it's own thread.)

Edited March 8, 2015 by subtledoctor

[Icezera]

I don't understand why you want simple. The whole point of SR and SCS is to make the game more complex by balancing out things and adding more viable options. SR makes the game complex by adding more depth to spells, adding more options, and giving us players more room for interesting situations with new spells and effects. Trying to take that complexity out of the game runs contrary to the whole point of this mod and others like them.

 

Finally, however flawed AD&D may be, this game is not AD&D. It is based of it, yes, but the whole video game system makes it a very different ruleset and thus we work with this to make it good. Thus, any criticism of 'old-school' design is not valid. You have to critique it in its context of BG2, especially SR BG2 and, further, it seems like SR+AI enhancement BG2.

 

I understand this is an open forum to discuss your opinions and attempt to shape how the mod develops, but please don't try to construe a valid tactical interplay that has been introduced with SR+AI enhancements as a design flaw or source of ui frustration. There is a real choice presented to players whether or not to use normal weapons. Taking that decision away just for your personal satisfaction when you can simply opt not to use them and use the other valid tactical choice is a huge flaw in your argument.

[Icezera]

@subtledoctor

 

How is carrying around normals weapons boring or annoying at all? You are assigning the terms 'boring and annoying' to the simple act of carrying around an item. How is that BORING? Carrying items is a core part of rpg gameplay. If it's annoying, that goes back to the point of wands/summoning items/item switching in general. Better not use wave halberd at all since it's statistically inferior to other halberds you get at the same time (Dragon's Breath) since it's "ANNOYING" to switch weapons when presented with an opportunity to benefit from different weapons. Better not use the magical arrows except the most powerful since it's ANNOYING to switch arrows when confronted with different enemies. Better remove clay golems from the game since it's ANNOYING to switch weapons to actually hurt them.

Your only valid criticism is that enemy ai does not recognize PfMW and that is a criticism not of the spell or carrying around normal weapons but a criticism of the ai for failing to recognize and compensating.

[bradinmemph]

i personally like the idea of true seeing triggering more often like every 3 seconds or making it a slightly lower lvl spell and then theres a gap for a new 5th/6th lvl spell that does what true seeing was orignally saw that suggested some number of comments back sorry i cant find the authour but i like the idea of either true seeing being every 2 or 3 seconds or make a spoace for a 6th lvl version that fills the role of orginal true seeing..

as for the pfmw thing firstly if the ai cant take advantage of it it becomes a big pc advantage hole asnd from a game play perspective .. its so counter intuitive build up and up a char spend time questing putting together peices and having a great magic weapon only to have to lug around some rusty iron sword for every freaking mage who cast pfmw certain equip for specialized monsters yeah mirror for medusea and baslisk.. silver for x.. etc all good but to lug around a rusty iron sword to deal with every spellcaster above lvl 13 really loses something in gameplay for me

[bradinmemph]

 

[./DATA/DEFAULT.BIF] 6201616 bytes, 522 files, 0 tilesets
Appending to files ...
Appended text to [MSECTYPE.2DA]
Added MSECTYPE.2DA SpellShield
Copying and patching 1 file ...
[./override/spwi519.spl] loaded, 442 bytes
ERROR: cannot convert spell_shield_icon_num or %spell_shield_icon_num% to an integer
ERROR: [spwi519.spl] -> [override] Patching Failed (COPY) (Not_found)
Stopping installation because of error.
Stopping installation because of error.
Stopping installation because of error.
Stopping installation because of error.

 

 

get errors when i try installing the newest version of SR

[zenblack]

If you downloaded the version on Dropbox now it is probably incomplete since it says it was uploaded 5 days ago but this thread hasn't been updated.

[bradinmemph]

i did LOL anyone happen to have a working ver 4?? or a link to the release pre latest dropbox ul? was doing the clean install thing for BGee/2ee to test other stuff and musta wiped earlier ver 4 release dl'd from dropbox link a 5day old ver.. and now im getting errors

Edited March 8, 2015 by bradinmemph

[Demivrgvs]

@bradinmemph I'll hopefully update a new build before dinner. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[bradinmemph]

no problem man it was my own silly fault id deleted the earlier v4 and didnt keep a back up look forward for new build any chance of MS4-9 or As 4-7 making it in?

[kreso]

SCS enemies will *not* switch to normal weapons. So it works out to be a *huge* advantage for the player.

This. PfMW is double standards. Edwin casts it, he's immune to weapons. Kaol casts it, he's dead in <8 seconds to rusty swords from Irenicus dungeon and 1GP arrows.

Frankly, I'm not overly concerned about RR faltering on PfMW - the moment Improved Haste has been changed not to double APR (more than a year ago), Rogue Rebalancing AI will falter.

Part of Selina (sorceress) script:

CheckStat("RR#GROK",0,IMPROVEDHASTE). // Selina will now repeatedly cast Imp.Haste on Grok.

 

Now, if we want to revert Imp.Haste to it's vanilla 8-10 apr status (StateHASTED won't work here - it's specific to 2xapr opcode), RR compatibility will be preserved. If it's messed up already (and it is), I see no problem with PfMW turning into PfW. It will cause less problems for Rogue Rebalancing than Imp.Haste tweak already does.

[Shaitan]

kreso and Ardanis convinced me. I've used normal weapons all the way through SoA as it seemed to make sense. PfW can I live with, as long as it doesn't mess up SCS. Still I find AD&D better than the newer systems. Every system has its flaws.

[Salk]

Icezera,

 

carrying around normal weapons just to overcome the cheesy situation where magic weapons are ineffective *is* annoying.

 

The whole point of getting magical weapons should be that you don't need to downgrade them in order to be effective. It's a design flaw and it should be gone.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Salk

[kreso]

Icezera,

 

carrying around normal weapons just to overcome the cheesy situation where magic weapons are ineffective *is* annoying.

 

The whole point of getting magical weapons should be that you don't need to downgrade them in order to be effective. It's a design flaw and it should be gone.

+1.

 

Look at it this way - if AI had the option to bypass PfMW by using normal weapons/attacks, would you ever memorize it on mages? Of course not, it would be crap for it's level, completely inferior to 4th level Stoneskin - in both effect/duration/etc.

This is what happens to AI mages now.

It has it's uses (i.e. it will keep them safe from some nasty on-hit effects when you aquire such weapons) but at level 6 with 24 seconds duration it's way overrated.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Icezera, carrying around normal weapons just to overcome the cheesy situation where magic weapons are ineffective *is* annoying.

Well, or we could make a non magical + weapons and the cheese would be totally gone. Bye bye. The Wizard Slayer would actually be a good class. Now they would just need to get an anti-Lich ability, one that drops the ring of cheese. I would actually isolate the normal weapon immunity to a unique ring that can be destroyed, while the other would still be in the non dropping ring. Ouh, and make a wizard spell, say level 7 that does the same. The Lich counter would be one free level innate spell that gives back the ring, but takes time to cast(well actually not so much time as a round of casting) or commit a suicide.