subtledoctor Posted September 29, 2022 Author Share Posted September 29, 2022 2 hours ago, Graion Dilach said: This is the first time I hear about that community list and I can think of way too many mods missing from that list to consider it relevant even(Wild Magic Additions, MSFM, SoD2BG2IU, B_Spells, MiH Yeah nobody has updated it in like 10 years. (Of course, there weren't any new spell mods for about 8 of those10 years.) But the purpose of the list is still important, to avoid duplication in case one modder adds CLERIC_SPIKE_GROWTH and a different modder adds CLERIC_GROW_SPIKES. I don't think MSfM adds any spells relevant to this, and B_Spells/MiH/SoD2BG2IU are relatively brand new mods that surely never knew about the community list. That doesn't mean the list is irrelevant; it just means those modders should contribute to it! (B_Spells is, AFAIK, identical FnP, and I noted above that FnP should really enter its spells onto that list.) Wild Mage Additions should not be using ADD_SPELL for wild magic spells in any event - wild magic spells are learned automatically by wild mages so there is no need to put them in the spell selection UI. All it does is take up vital slots that other mods could use (unless the mod changes more than I realize about how wild mages work). 2 hours ago, Graion Dilach said: I'd really appreciate you wouldn't cite DSotSC as the primary example for this though. I never criticized it, but the plain fact is that the mod adds a ton of spells. Even the mods that do this right caan tend to get in each others' way, in ways that are difficult to resolve - because install orders are not flexible enough to shuffle things around, and mods' code isn't flexible enough to handlesuch conflicts gracefully. Players might want to play the DSotSC quests, and start installing things, and only later end up in @sturmvogel's position where some other mod is failing to install for reasons that are difficult to discern. Failing a community effort to figure out a way to expand the number of usable spells, players will have a difficult time knowing which mod does what, and how to plan which ones they want to install. (Unless, of course, the mods that add spells in this way publicly report the ones they add... like on a community list... and oh hey, what do you know, DSotSC actually already does that! So maybe not so irrelevant ) 2 hours ago, Graion Dilach said: Olyvn's tool does a lot more than enabling stuff to sorcerers, it literally includes every filtering possible and then some, Which is part of the problem with his tool. 70% of what it does could already be done without any Lua or UI modding, and the other 30% is bound up with the whole thing and leads to compatibility issues that nobody by Olvyn knows how to solve. If the thing was more modular, transparent, and geared toward compatibility, it might have really helped solve this. But as it is, it solves little. And because it is built to do "a lot more / and then some," I can't even fork it and make it work in a modular way. I don't even understand how the thing works. Quote Link to comment
sturmvogel Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 I did delete the Vixenay NPC mod as it has a few spells, but still no joy after reinstalling Spell Revisions, etc. Will examine quest mods for spells next although I'm willing to bet that it'll be fruitless since I purposely avoided the ancient megamods like CtB and SoS, as well as DSotC. Quote Link to comment
Graion Dilach Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 You can just simply weidu --log nul --change-log SPELL.IDS to find out which mods added to the list. But I don't think it's Vienxay because I never had issues against that one. EET + SoD2BG2IU + IWDification + CtB + MiH_SP (cleans spell.ids on first component, against CtB here) + master DSotSC works. I even managed to install F&P's vanilla sphere system on top of this. It could be SR for all I know, because I'm not installing arbitrary changes I have no control of. Spoiler d:\Baldur's Gate - ProjectInfinity\Baldur's Gate II EET>weidu --log nul --change-log SPELL.IDS [weidu] WeiDU version 24900 Mods affecting SPELL.IDS: 00000: /* created or unbiffed */ ~EET\EET.TP2~ 0 0 // EET core (resource importation)V13.4 00001: ~SOD2BG2_IU\SOD2BG2_IU.TP2~ 0 0 // SoD to BG2:EE Item upgrade by Daeros_Trollkillerv2.0.4 00002: ~NTOTSC\NTOTSC.TP2~ 0 12 // Improved Ghotal5.0.0 00003: ~ASCENSION\ASCENSION.TP2~ 0 0 // Rewritten Final Chapter of Throne of Bhaal2.0.23 00004: ~WHEELS\SETUP-WHEELS.TP2~ 0 0 // The Wheels of Prophecyv8.5 00005: ~IWDIFICATION\SETUP-IWDIFICATION.TP2~ 0 30 // IWD Arcane Spell Packv5 00006: ~IWDIFICATION\SETUP-IWDIFICATION.TP2~ 0 40 // IWD Divine Spell Packv5 00007: ~A7-TOTLM-BG2EE\A7-TOTLM-BG2EE.TP2~ 0 0 // Trials of the Luremaster for Baldur's Gate3.0 00008: ~CTB\SETUP-CTB.TP2~ 0 0 // Check The Bodies3.0 00009: ~ATWEAKS\SETUP-ATWEAKS.TP2~ 0 152 // PnP FiendsMod-added fiends are also affectedv4.53 00010: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 0 // Revised Corporal Undeadv6 00011: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 1 // Revised Dragonsv6 00012: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 2 // Revised Golemsv6 00013: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 3 // Revised Lichesv6 00014: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 5 // Revised Magical Beastsv6 00015: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 6 // Revised Monstrous Spidersv6 00016: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 7 // Revised Oozes, Slimes & Jelliesv6 00017: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 8 // Revised Vampiresv6 00018: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 9 // Enhanced Battles: Ankheg Pitv6 00019: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 10 // Enhanced Battles: Candlekeep Catacombsv6 00020: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 11 // Enhanced Battles: Mutamin's Gardenv6 00021: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 12 // Enhanced Battles: Ramazith's Towerv6 00022: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 13 // Enhanced Battles: The Spider Plaguev6 00023: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 14 // Enhanced Battles: Thieves' Maze & Undercityv6 00024: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 15 // Enhanced Battles: Ulcaster Ruinsv6 00025: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 16 // Enhanced Battles: Xvart Villagev6 00026: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 17 // Enhanced Battles: Zombie Farmv6 00027: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 18 // Enhanced Battles: Durlag's Towerv6 00028: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 19 // The Surgeon's Plightv6 00029: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 20 // Sarevok's Assassinsv6 00030: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 21 // Prevent chapter 6 cutscene from moving party to Candlekeepv6 00031: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 22 // Minor Quest Tweaks (BG1)v6 00032: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 23 // Enhanced Battles: Bridgefortv6 00033: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 24 // Enhanced Battles: Cyric's Templev6 00034: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 25 // Enhanced Battles: Dwarven Dig Sitev6 00035: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 26 // Enhanced Battles: Korlasz' Tombv6 00036: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 27 // Enhanced Battles: Vampire Encountersv6 00037: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 28 // Complete more/all Vision Quest encountersv6 00038: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 29 // Increase Enemy Group Sizev6 00039: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 30 // Enhanced Battles: Athkatla Lichesv6 00040: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 31 // Enhanced Battles: Firkraag's Lairv6 00041: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 32 // Enhanced Battles: Graveyard Catacombsv6 00042: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 33 // Enhanced Battles: Lower Reachesv6 00043: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 34 // Enhanced Battles: Slum Sewersv6 00044: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 35 // Enhanced Battles: Spellholdv6 00045: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 36 // Enhanced Battles: Suldanessenarv6 00046: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 37 // Enhanced Battles: Temple Ruinsv6 00047: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 38 // Enhanced Battles: Trademeetv6 00048: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 39 // Enhanced Battles: Underdarkv6 00049: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 40 // Minor Quest Tweaks (SoA)v6 00050: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 41 // Enhanced Battles: Amkethranv6 00051: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 42 // Enhanced Battles: Forest of Mirv6 00052: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 43 // Enhanced Battles: Pocket Planev6 00053: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 44 // Enhanced Battles: Saradushv6 00054: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 45 // Enhanced Battles: Sendai's Enclavev6 00055: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 46 // Enhanced Battles: Watcher's Keepv6 00056: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 47 // Enhanced Battles: Yaga-Shura's Armyv6 00057: ~MIH_EQ\SETUP-MIH_EQ.TP2~ 0 48 // Minor Quest Tweaks (ToB)v6 00058: ~MIH_FR\SETUP-MIH_FR.TP2~ 0 4 // Spell Restorationsv1 00059: ~MIH_SP\SETUP-MIH_SP.TP2~ 0 0 // Made in Heaven: Arcane Spellpackv6 00060: ~MIH_SP\SETUP-MIH_SP.TP2~ 0 1 // Made in Heaven: Divine Spellpackv6 00061: ~MIH_SP\SETUP-MIH_SP.TP2~ 0 5 // Made in Heaven: Epic Spellpack (EXPERIMENTAL)v6 00062: ~MIH_SP\SETUP-MIH_SP.TP2~ 0 6 // Revised Animate Dead (EXPERIMENTAL)v6 00063: ~MIH_SP\SETUP-MIH_SP.TP2~ 0 10 // True Meteor Swarm (EXPERIMENTAL)v6 00064: ~DSOTSC\DSOTSC.TP2~ 0 1 // DSotSC Wizard spellsv4.1 00065: ~DSOTSC\DSOTSC.TP2~ 0 2 // DSotSC Priest spellsv4.1 00066: ~D5_RANDOM_TWEAKS\D5_RANDOM_TWEAKS.TP2~ 0 2451 // Make Shadow Monster Summons More Illusionary1.5.4 00067: ~A7-CHAOSSORCERER\A7-CHAOSSORCERER.TP2~ 0 0 // "Chaos Sorcerer" kit2.7 00068: ~IWDIFICATION\SETUP-IWDIFICATION.TP2~ 0 50 // IWD Class Updates: Bard: Add IWD Bard Songsv5 00069: ~MIH_SP\SETUP-MIH_SP.TP2~ 0 2 // Revised Paladin Powersv6 00070: ~MIH_TWEAKS\SETUP-MIH_TWEAKS.TP2~ 0 2 // Spell Level affects Saving Throwsv1 00071: ~STRATAGEMS\SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 5900 // Initialise AI components (required for all tactical and AI components)34.3 00072: ~STRATAGEMS\SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 6030 // Smarter Mages34.3 00073: ~STRATAGEMS\SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 6200 // Improved Spiders34.3 00074: ~STRATAGEMS\SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 6500 // Improved golems34.3 00075: ~STRATAGEMS\SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 6510 // Improved fiends and celestials34.3 00076: ~STRATAGEMS\SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 6550 // Smarter beholders34.3 00077: ~STRATAGEMS\SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 6560 // Smarter mind flayers34.3 00078: ~STRATAGEMS\SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 6580 // Improved Vampires34.3 00079: ~STRATAGEMS\SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 8160 // Improved Fire Giant temple34.3 00080: ~ENHANCED-POWERGAMING-SCRIPTS\ENHANCED-POWERGAMING-SCRIPTS.TP2~ 0 15 // Install Enhanced Powergaming ScriptsAccelerated Pre-Buffing Speedv9.3 00081: ~FAITHS_AND_POWERS/FAITHS_AND_POWERS.TP2~ 0 23 // Create a sphere systemVanilla: traditional spell lists, kits can cross the cleric/druid divide0.84.00 d:\Baldur's Gate - ProjectInfinity\Baldur's Gate II EET> spell.ids Quote Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 @sturmvogel is it possible your just installs just aren’t starting from a fully clean game? Sometimes it happens, after lots of installing/uninstalling/testing, there ends up being some files left in /override. If you have random SPPR files there, it could be mistakenly inflating the spell count. Quote Link to comment
Graion Dilach Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, subtledoctor said: Which is part of the problem with his tool. 70% of what it does could already be done without any Lua or UI modding, and the other 30% is bound up with the whole thing and leads to compatibility issues that nobody by Olvyn knows how to solve. If the thing was more modular, transparent, and geared toward compatibility, it might have really helped solve this. But as it is, it solves little. And because it is built to do "a lot more / and then some," I can't even fork it and make it work in a modular way. I don't even understand how the thing works. The only issue with Olvyn's tool is that the LUA entries are hard to be parsed in WeiDU because WeiDU lacks a proper readline function. Transparency isn't really an issue, the library just creates a two-dimensional array in LUA to be read by the UI code as an extension of the spellcasting UI segments. You can also claim that the compatibility is somewhat harder to do within it as well, because it doesn't include a string identifier akin to the value of spell.ids's, but that's a lesser problem, since it was designed for absolutely unique spells/setups (warlock and the like), so all the usecases so far never needed duplicate checks. If I'd know how to write a simple readline, writing an Olvyn parser would be straightforward, because with that, one just writes a stack parser and then reads the entire file line by line and works with it directly and/or spits out the file into something more of a traditional format. Olyvn uses YAML-style indentation within the function, so the indentation could even be used as an additional validator. I still consider 5e spellcasting worse. Lack of documentation, lack of transparency, lack of debugging possibilities but a lot of procedurally generated files to ensure one to be lost in tracing back to which file does what. I've put a lot of my time to wrap that one around my head over the first half of the year during debugging megamod installs but by now that is the thing I am unwilling to touch with a ten foot inch pole. It's a brilliant mess, I give you that, but either EET, either Olvyn's tool, either QD_MULTI, even m7multikit are miles ahead in terms of explanations and internal documentation to help a newcomer to comprehend. Out of all the "black magic running on blackjack and hookers" solutions, 5e spellcasting is the only one where I think only you can comprehend what's going on. I also find it kinda amusing that you have an issue with old megamods installing spells causing issues with the install order while FnP has a presumably-outdated IWDification and a B_Spells cannibalized and these aren't mentioned in the short summary either, just in the detailed readme and the settings ini (and you can't install the spells before the kits either). Edited September 30, 2022 by Graion Dilach Quote Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted September 30, 2022 Author Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Graion Dilach said: The only issue with Olvyn's tool is that the LUA Okay, I should backtrack and say that the first issue with Olvyn’s tool is LUA. BG modders use Weidu, are use to Weidu, have gotten to know how to mod in Weidu. People cannot be expected to just pick up another programming language. Stack parsers? YAML? All that stuff if gobbledygook to me and most others here. If the bar to entry for effective use of a tool for getting more spells in the game is to understand that stuff, then it’s a non-starter. 1 hour ago, Graion Dilach said: black magic running on blackjack and hookers You are veering further off-topic and further into needless shit-talking. 5E is all in Weidu, and since things must be generated on the fly, it makes a simple 2da table for anyone (or any other mod) to look at to see what is going on in a given install. And it includes purpose-built functions for any other mod to participate in its systems. But this is not the place to argue about it. If you have gripes or criticisms bring it up in the appropriate thread. 1 hour ago, Graion Dilach said: find it kinda amusing that you have an issue with old megamods installing spells causing issues I don’t have any issue with any specific mod. Have I not made that clear? But when players report “there’s an installation bug with mod Y!” when there is really no bug, it’s just that mod Y by happenstance is installed after X and the player reached the spell limit, then I am going to respond “you need to consider the various mods that add spells and maybe make some hard decisions… and by the way, some mods that add spells might not be ones you expect.” Who are you to get so defensive that you see phantom insults there? I mean I could understand it from someone who made those mods (but they would still be mistaken), but you’re just some rando who has nothing to do with it. 1 hour ago, Graion Dilach said: while FnP has a presumably-outdated IWDification and a B_Spells cannibalized Grammarsalad made the IWD spells conversion when there was no way to get IWD spells into the EEs - both IWDification and SCS only worked on the pre-EE engine and were languishing and at risk of becoming abandonware. Nowadays we recommend using those mods, but his FnP version is still here as a backup. (And it uses the same IDS entries as IWDification so it does not change anything as far as the spell count goes.) Grammarsalad also created a bunch of new spells, as part of FnP. So I don’t know what you mean by “cannibalize.” He’s in the process of spinning it off into a separate spell pack mod - B_Spells - and removing them from FnP. Which I fully support. But he’ll do that on his own time and in the meantime I fail to see how it’s your concern or what there is to be critical of. Bottom line, I’m here actually trying to solve problems for players. I’m actively trying to reduce my mods’ dependence on ADD_SPELL so that more mods can be used together. (A benefit of FnP bundling B_Spells with the sphere systems, of which you seem oblivious, is that we can actually install them without ADD_SPELL and thereby use up no slots at lal.) By contrast I have not seen you do anything to address the spell limit issue, except pop out of the woodwork and get hyperdefensive when anyone mentions older quest mods. This is tedious. I say, put up or shut up. Edited September 30, 2022 by subtledoctor Quote Link to comment
Graion Dilach Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, subtledoctor said: By contrast I have not seen you do anything to address the spell limit issue, except pop out of the woodwork and get hyperdefensive when anyone mentions older quest mods. This is tedious. I say, put up or shut up. https://github.com/SpellholdStudios/DSotSC/pull/23 and https://github.com/SpellholdStudios/Shadows_over_Soubar/pull/26. If I can get the latter fully stable without breaking anything afterwards (sure, I'll have to test everything on all supported platforms to ensure that), I can reuse the knowledge to fix CtB thenafter. I brought DSotSC up multiple times because I fixed the spell duplication problem due to your past protests, actually. I mean, the reason I could tell you about the static spell indexes was because I never looked at them in depth. Obviously. I also sacrificed my install to try replicating the install issue and I couldn't. While I have all those quest mods installed (and a lot more) and only SR was missing from my test bench. Sure, I can't fix ClassSpellTool at the moment, but not because I don't understand it - I just can't write the solution in WeiDU. Come to think of it, maybe I shoulda look at SSL, and the way it integrates Perl, because atleast the latter would give me a readline... And those tools are not needed to get it working for modders who want to add new spells. Modders who want to add new spells using ClassSpellTool just needs to call a function in WeiDU with a bunch of params, an ADD_SPELL_EX-akin function and call it done. Modders who want to parse the Olyvn data are the ones who need that parser alone. Which you want for TnB and for this. Seriously, do you feel threatened? You seem to have a problem that I am coming outside of and outright ignoring your comfort zone with an IT background. I do acknowledge, most of the stuff I'm doing are outside of your comfort zone (even the things which then ensure that stuff gets adjusted to suit your comfort zone thenafter). That still doesn't change that your documentation is poor - if 5E's fatigue issue doesn't come up randomly in one topic, you wouldn't have even mentioned that "hey guys, I took ownership of it so please do this and that". Edited September 30, 2022 by Graion Dilach Quote Link to comment
sturmvogel Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 It's possible, but unlikely, IMO, that I could have stray spell files as I'd nuked my earlier install before starting this one. I am considering doing it again as my frustration level approaches equilibrium with the amount of effort required to reinstall. Perhaps I'll try rolling everything back to base game and emptying the override file and see how well that works rather than have Beamdog's installer overwrite everything in the folder like I ordinarily do. Alternatively, I may just drop Spell Revisions and see if the problem persists. Or maybe just use the fix presented by @subtledoctor @Graion Dilach I appreciate your efforts to keep some of the older quest mods up to date. I'll have to try to install CtB, TDDz and SoS again; I had some sort of a weird failure with the BP worldmap mod a few years ago that prevented me from running at least the first two and I can't remember what caused the problem with SoS. I posted about it in the Spellhold Studios forum on the mod, but nobody ever replied, probably because none of them were Mac users. I would love it if somebody were to figure out how to rework those megamods to use another way to get to and from all the new areas, although I'm not holding my breath. Quote Link to comment
Graion Dilach Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 TDD(z) could be an issue there, because that mod is in need of a recode, alongside SoBH. TDD(z)'s stray files have already nuked other installs prior. Quote Link to comment
Grammarsalad Posted October 3, 2022 Share Posted October 3, 2022 (edited) New release: 0.84.01 - Fixes an error that was preventing installation of 2E-style sphere system. (thanks to MagmaZarroc for catching this error). - Added code for future priest scroll additions (not yet available) Not necessary to upgrade during a current playthrough. Only necessary if you are planning on installing the 2E-Style sphere system.https://github.com/UnearthedArcana/Faiths_and_Powers/releases Edited October 3, 2022 by Grammarsalad Quote Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted October 7, 2022 Author Share Posted October 7, 2022 Heh heh, the 2E sphere system was still not installing, in certain circumstances. After much deliberation and investigation we fixed the issue in version 0.84.2. This also adds a few more .ini options to let you customize the installer (whether to change the XP table for druids, whether to change the spell tables for paladins and rangers). And last but not least it (finally) adds LABELs to the.tp2, for better integration with Project Infinity and putative future similar installation tools. Quote Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 (edited) I have coded up the beginnings of the Paladin Revisions, just to make a proof of concept. Allowing variants in the Ranger class (where I was going to make the Envoy subclass) is going to add substantial complexity, so I am going to table that for now. And the more I thought about it, the more I wondered why we need a "basic" paladin archetype? What work is it doing? So what I have halfway coded is this: there are three archetypes for paladins. In game, you will trigger a dialogue to choose from one of these options: DEFENDER: May Lay On Hands at 1st level, plus once per day per ten levels Immune to Disease May Cure Disease at 1st level, plus once per day per five levels of experience Has an Aura of Protection that passively grants a defensive bonus to nearby allies May use the Smite Enemy ability to do extra melee damage at 1st level, plus once per day per five levels INQUISITOR: Immune to magical Hold effects May innately cast True Sight Oracle? at 1st level, plus once per day per ten levels May innately cast Dispel Magic at 1st level, plus once per day per ten levels ZEALOT: Immune to magical Charm effects Immune to fear and panic effects May innately cast Remove Fear at 1st level, plus once per day per five levels May go into a devout Frenzy at 1st level, plus once per day per ten levels At 10th level, may advance specialization in one weapon one step further than normally allowed to paladins So three archetypes, and not every deity will allow Champions of all types (staid Helm might employ Defenders and Inquisitors, but not Zealots; Gruumsh might employ Zealots and Inquisitors, but surely no defenders. Etc.) This will be something overlaid on top of your kit, so you will still get basic deity-derived kit abilities, as well as distinct spell lists if you use a sphere system. Can anyone think of other ideas for this, before I get too much further into the coding? Maybe a 'monster killer' type, as a stand-in for the Cavalier? It's a dangerous world full of magical beasts, right? Maybe deities would empower some followers to protect the faithful against such monsters. Something like: +3 to attacks vs. giant creatures (dragons, wyverns, giants...?) Immune to wing buffet? Immune to poison? Immune to fear? Advanced specialization in a 2-handed weapon? Something like that? Is this even needed? Are there other good ideas that I am not thinking of? EDIT - different train of thought: paladins might be an interesting place to use 'focus access' in the sphere system? They don't get as many spells, but for that very reason, getting a few higher-level spells at lower levels might be even more impactful... Edited October 13, 2022 by subtledoctor Quote Link to comment
GawainBS Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 About the focus access: I think you spe'd so much time on the higher levels, that the earlier access to powerful spells is pretty insignificant in the long run... Quote Link to comment
Quester Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 I definitely think Focus access to relevant spheres would be a suitable thing for paladins. On another note, I did notice previously that FnP currently does not offer a kit for paladins of Torm, even though that god is traditionally one of those most commonly associated with paladins. Quote Link to comment
subtledoctor Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 45 minutes ago, Quester said: I definitely think Focus access to relevant spheres would be a suitable thing for paladins. On another note, I did notice previously that FnP currently does not offer a kit for paladins of Torm, even though that god is traditionally one of those most commonly associated with paladins. Why do I feel like it does? Or did? Maybe something happened and it's not working? I'll take a look. Part of the difficulty with paladins is that there isn't source material to work from. With clerics it's easy: grab the 2E AD&D books, check out the specialty priest of each deity, and write it up as a kit in the BG style. While other mods (ahem) might vaguely imply they are special for being based on the PnP material, the fact is that Faiths & Powers is thoroughly devoted to the source material and most of the contents here is pulled straight from the AD&D books. Literally every cleric kit description I've written here is paraphrased or copied verbatim from the original sources. But there are no 2E paladins of different deities. Paladins were a very singular type of class - LG heavy knights - and the AD&D paladin kits are largely just glosses on a character's background and social position. 3E had Divine Champions of different alignments and for all different deities, and so these are the broad inspiration for FnP paladin kits; but they give precious little guidance for actual implementation in this game engine. While making cleric kits is a simple matter of translating sourcebook stats into Weidu code, paladin kits need to be created out of whole cloth, with a lot of discretionary decisions that players may or not like. That's why there are fewer paladin kits than cleric kits. (There is also the bigger question of really what role paladins serve when we have kitted fighter/clerics to serve in the role of divine warriors... we considered for a while whether we shouldn't remove paladins and let the multiclass serve in that role - and I still think that is something to consider. But ultimately, the game contains both classes and players expect that, so we put in paladin kits even though the conceptual overlap is substantial.) Anyway that's a lot of rambling. If we are going to merge paladins and zealots and uses these archetypes instead, it will result in a lot of apparent paladin options in the mod. But it will involve a lot of work in re-shaping all the existing kits. While I'm doing that, it should be easy enough to write something up for Torm. Quote Link to comment
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