4e in the works

[cirerrek]

The thing the sucks about the 3E+ feat system is that the feats don't mean that much.

 

I'd rather see evolving feats.

 

Leadership: Command 10 men

Leadership2: Command 100 men

Leadership3: Command 1000 men

 

So when you pick a feat it really means something about your character. Who they are, how they solve problems, etc.,.

 

None of this +1 to Hit crap for Weapon Focus and +1 to Damage for Weapon Specialization, or whatever.

 

Someone on WoTC boards did a huge write up on this.

 

----

 

And come on the art in the newer stuff is crap. Bring back Elmore! Except, find someone else to do dwarves.

[BigRob]

Probably the best AD&D ruleset I've seen was the very short lived "Player's Option" that came out just before 3E. It really allowed class and character customisation, and the High Level abilities, Mastery and Grandmastery rules gave fighters something to do at high levels.

 

 

The biggest change I dislike between 2nd and later editions is the trend towards less fluff details, stories, regional background information, general world-building info. The newer books alwasy strike me as being mostly just stat and mechanics books that focus more on rollplay rather than roleplay. A great example is looking at the second edition monster manuals versus the later monster manuals. The second edition versions gave me a much better understanding of what to expect from a particular creature, where to encounter it, its habitat, life-cycle, etc. The newer one is mostly just a brief stat sheet.

 

Yeah, that was pretty much my beef with the 3rd edition system, no soul, no room for books like "Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue" with seven pages devoted to bread and cheese, with illustratons.

 

Notwithstanding that AD&D (1st and 2nd edition) was basically a combat system with some rules for encumbrance, 3E was so much worse. Most spells were so badly crippled in duration and scope that they could only be used for combat, and pre-buffing for any situation that wasn't going to start right now was useless since duations in rounds now translate into mere seconds.

 

The lack of cut-off in the scaling (i.e. you keep rolling dice for HP) also make 20th level characters so out of control it's not funny.

 

The dual classing options and feat system were very good aspects, however, so I will give them that. It does allow good character customisation (levels of feats would be an improvement, as Cirerrek mentioned) and the system has ironed out some grey areas in the 2nd edition rulesets, though I'm ambivalent about a lot of the choices they made (Kobolds are dragonkin?).

 

I'll probably look at 4th edition, as it may be something of an improvement, but I doubt I'll be actually using it if the "combat only" syndrome stays as part of things.

[Andyr]

I play 3.5, and it is my favourite. It's got problems, but I think it generally works.

 

I'm interested to see how 4E pans out. I've had several hobbies in the past which I've drifted from after changes in the editions of the rules--I suspect that the group I play with will continue to play 3.5E for a while, but given that I'm likely to be living somewhere else in two or three years I don't know how easy it will be to find 3.5E players then.

 

I think the hardest part will be from now until a year or so after 4E's release, as a lot of the options we have now probably won't have equivalents under the new system of rules until a fair while after release.

[berelinde]

My biggest complaint with E3.5 is the endless series of feats. There should be overlap, but they're specialized into insanity. If I'm playing a bard, I've got to dump skill points into each separate *kind* of performance, stringed, wind, voice, percussion, presumably drama and dance. And I need to have enough skill points left over to spend some on all those knowledge skills that replaced lore. Kind of funny, really. I used to get it all for free with E2.

[Lord Ernie]

That's actually overspecialization of skills . But yeah, I'm with ya there. I usually replace that stuff with taking one general perform skill and picking specialties.

 

Overall, though, and not to begin the endless 3.0/.5 vs 2.0 discussion: when I look at 2.0 I see a rigid system with some overly complex rules (thac0) and annoying restrictions; when I look at 3.5 I see a more open-ended but because of that sometimes overly specific system that tends to make leveling and such even more complex due to the amount of choice involved. I prefer the latter.

[Guest erik]

Gah. Happily, there's some pushback against the notion that D&D3/D20 should be used for all genres and at least two thirds of the games in any given game store.

 

Babylon 5 D20? No thanks. Star Wars D20? Ick. Black Company D20... argh. Call of Cthulhu D20 - you're kidding, right? Right? Traveller D20. Oof.

 

Star Wars from West End Games is perfectly serviceable and less flawed, thank you very much. Call of Cthulhu? The standard sixth edition and all the flavour you can stomach? Yes please. Traveller? Um, how about not completely changing the feel of the game and sticking with one of the previous four systems?

 

And to avoid accusations of "old fart"-hood, I'll point some newer good games I know of: Riddle of Steel, The Mountain Witch.

 

I'll round off the rant by quoting the authors of Paranoia.

 

"You are in error. No one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.

Within this 256-page volume, you will find:

* New non-d20 rules. Paranoia is fun. d20 games are not fun. Play Paranoia."

 

What? This is a rant. I didn't necessarily have a point.

[Simbriant]

Eh. I don't understand the commotion, really. Selling D&D books is one of the ways WotC makes money, and releasing a new edition practically ensures lots of sales.

 

More like it's one of the ways WotC rips the player's off. Look at the timeline between prior editions being released:

 

Dungeons and Dragons - 1977

Advanced D&D - 1978

AD&D 2nd Ed. - 1989

D&D 3rd Ed. - 2000

D&D 3.5 - 2003

D&D 4th Ed - 2008

 

It's ridiculous, really. D&D 3rd Ed. isn't even ten years old. I can understand them making 3.5 as it settled some power abuse issues with certain classes, but they don't need to come out with 4th edition this soon. All they manage to do with each new edition is to make the game even more complicated, despite how they always say they will 'simplify' things.

 

And truth is, most of the adventure modules made by WotC are rather bland compared to what some of the other companies released under the Open D20 system.

 

I hate what they did with Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Sword and Sorcery Studio's Ravenloft supliments are far superior. Hell, even the fanmade Ravenloft supliments are better.

 

The biggest change I dislike between 2nd and later editions is the trend towards less fluff details, stories, regional background information, general world-building info. The newer books alwasy strike me as being mostly just stat and mechanics books that focus more on rollplay rather than roleplay. A great example is looking at the second edition monster manuals versus the later monster manuals. The second edition versions gave me a much better understanding of what to expect from a particular creature, where to encounter it, its habitat, life-cycle, etc. The newer one is mostly just a brief stat sheet.

 

 

I agree. 2nd Ed. monster manuals helped the DM plan his campaign a bit by informing him where this monster would best be located. If you did end up fighting a monster on the road it felt slightly less random than in 3rd Ed.

 

The thing the sucks about the 3E+ feat system is that the feats don't mean that much.

 

I'd rather see evolving feats.

 

Leadership: Command 10 men

Leadership2: Command 100 men

Leadership3: Command 1000 men

 

So when you pick a feat it really means something about your character. Who they are, how they solve problems, etc.,.

 

None of this +1 to Hit crap for Weapon Focus and +1 to Damage for Weapon Specialization, or whatever.

 

I have to agree. And some of the feats were so ridiculous in that they were only useful in a very specific situation. I got so tired of it that I started asking players in my campaigns what feats and skills they chose so I could give them chances to actually use them.

 

Gah. Happily, there's some pushback against the notion that D&D3/D20 should be used for all genres and at least two thirds of the games in any given game store.

 

Babylon 5 D20? No thanks. Star Wars D20? Ick. Black Company D20... argh. Call of Cthulhu D20 - you're kidding, right? Right? Traveller D20. Oof.

 

I agree. The D20 system is simple, but there are a lot of things it isn't good for, plus it can become overcomplicated.

 

Personally, I liked White Wolf's storyteller system. It allowed personalization without overcomplicating things.

[Domi]

I mostly deal with the rule-systems in the CRPGs, with my forray into the Pen and Paper being relatively short-lived, because it quickly becomes overwhelming imo. And, to be honest, compared to the games like KOTOR or JE, rulesystem in D&D is far too detailed in my view. That whole bunch of useless skills, feats and endless weapon proficiencies for me kills the joy of a level up. I do like different classes but to a degree. I also like the removal of the racial restrictions and all that, but 4 different feats you need to select to be good with one weapon??? You gotta be kidding!

[Caedwyr]

As far as the chronology in the new realms goes, here is the Time of Troubles 2.0 they use to explain the rule changes:

 

 

In 1384 DR, Tyr kills Helm in a romantic misunderstanding over the heart of Tymora. Though nothing can be proved, the gods believe that Cyric is somehow involved in Helm's death.

 

In 1385 DR, With help from Shar, Cyric murders Mystra in Dweomerheart, destroying the plane and Savras, as well as sending Azuth and Velsharoon into the Astral plane.

 

Magic bursts from the bonds of the Weave. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath the veils of azure fire that dance across the sky.

 

Cyric is imprisoned on his home plane for 1000 years by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune for his crimes. This event is what is known as the Spellplague.

 

Apparently many planes are "shifted" or destroyed. The book states that only the greater gods can protect their respective planes from the destruction. This implies that some of the lesser [and intermediate] gods might not make it.

 

The last sentence of the book says that the Weave is destroyed and the "old world" ends and a new one begins. What that means is anybody's guess.

 

Further,

 

Although this has already been revealed in the novels, most of the Drow gods have been axed. All that's left is Lolth, Eilistraee, and Ghaunadaur. Later Ghaunadaur is attacked by Lolth and moves to the Deep Caverns.

 

And in 1383 a bunch of dwarven deities bite it. Gorm, Heala, Laduguer, and Deep Duerra die in battle with each other. The book says that Hammergrim "disperses" into the Astral.

 

The sample chapter for the Orc King (by Salvatore) gleans some glimpse of the future of Realms.

 

The Spellplague devastates most of the Realms in some fashion. Hundreds of thousands of people die in the chaos of the Spellplague. The Empire of Nethril rises, the aboleths become a problem. This is a reference to the colliding of two worlds though if this is literal event or bardish prose, I don't know.

 

The Silver Marches apparently are no more though Silverymoon survives. To survive, a very loose alliance with Obould Many-arrows arises.

[Andyr]

It sounds to me like the 4E Realms will be quite different! I posted a thread on the WotC boards with the spoilers in the Orc King sample chapter--and now we've got the extra info from Grand History of the Realms. It's just a shame I have to wait a few more weeks for my copy of the latter over here!

[Bri]

Sounds like they are using it as a chance for a retcon...something I don't really care for...

[Simbul]

No, for FR it's not retconning - it is worse. Looks like they are killing some deities, some major NPCs and probably pushing ahead the timeline 100 years in the future or so.

Retconning was what they did when 3 ed. came around - new cosmology, making Simbul a sorcerer and things like that.

It seems the Realms as we know them are coming to the end. Too much has been changed, too stupid things have been done for the setting to remain the same.

[CoM_Solaufein]

Well I won't have anything to do with 4E especially if they are screwing around with the known gods and heroes of the Forgotten Realms. I bought some 3E stuff when it first came out but nothing much over the past few years. It really doesn't interest me.

[Andyr]

Simbul, are you the same poster as The Simbul on the WotC forums?

[close2myheart]

Hunh ? Tyr killed Helm?

I thought both of them + Torm are on friendly terms or something

 

I kinda heard from somewhere (Bioware forum I think, not so sure) that during the spellplague, all sorcerer die ?

If it's true, then.... since I always loved the sorcerer class