Offtopic Anvil Discussion

[CamDawg]

Since no one seems to be actually able to go away and relax, we'll enforce it. Come back in a few hours, and I'll have the topic unlocked again.

OK, let's try this again.

[Cashews]

Since no one seems to be actually able to go away and relax, we'll enforce it. Come back in a few hours, and I'll have the topic unlocked again.

OK, let's try this again.

 

With all due respect, I don't see a need to do so. The original question has been answered and the remaining posts are rude, inappropriate or simply meaningless. I'm all for freedom of speech, but shouldn't we simply move on to other things before things degenerate further?

[Shaitan]

Yes, let's spare Baronius and others for these attacks.

[berelinde]

He can and does look after himself. I'd as soon that courtesy was extended to everyone.

[CamDawg]

If they continue in the same vein, sure. We did have some useful discussion and comments, and it'd be nice to continue those.

 

I very much believe in letting folks hoist themselves on their own petards. If posters wish to continue (or start, don't want to leave any one out!) embarrassing themselves by posting rude, inflammatory, false, misleading, etc. posts they're welcome to continue doing so.

[dizzyorange]

Let me apologize for starting this thread. As I've said before, I didn't mean to start any hostilities.

 

My original question has been answered by many posters who have posted well-written, carefully thought out opinions on IA. Thanks to those who took the time to do so.

 

It's great to see such an active community for a game this old. BG2 is one of my favorite games ever, despite never finishing it. I am really looking forward to finishing the game!

 

It's also cool that there's a little friendly competition between different modding sites. But there's no point in getting snappy with each other right? As a neutral third-party that has only very recently started reading this forums, it seems that the conflict stems from a misinterpretation of each other's styles. For example, IA's author (Skiret, sp?) speaks in a very literal way, i.e. saying other's comments are "false" when he could use gentler terms. When he (or she?) says something like "IA is the only bugfree mod", there's bound to be others who take some offense to that. So, in the spirit of cooperation, why not be polite and unassuming whenever possible?

 

Just imagine if all these groups GB, PP, SHS, BWL (any others I've left out) worked together to make a mega-mod. How f'ing cool would that be? I'd definitely play through BG2 one more time to experience that.

[Domi]

Let me apologize for starting this thread. As I've said before, I didn't mean to start any hostilities.

 

You have nothing to appologize for. The thread indeed produced a wide and exhaustive variety of opinions on the IA, and I think anyone who read it pretty much made up his or her mind on if it's their cup of tea or not. Hey, we should do these get-together about mods out there more often, minus the hostile part

 

Just imagine if all these groups GB, PP, SHS, BWL (any others I've left out) worked together to make a mega-mod. How f'ing cool would that be? I'd definitely play through BG2 one more time to experience that.

 

There is a commercial game produced by lots of various community members under JC's leadership, called Broken Hourglass. It's as close as you will come to a mega-mod kind of thing. As a hobby project it's hardly doable for a number of reasons.

[CamDawg]

Let me apologize for starting this thread. As I've said before, I didn't mean to start any hostilities.

You're not responsible for the misbehavior of others.

 

Just imagine if all these groups GB, PP, SHS, BWL (any others I've left out) worked together to make a mega-mod. How f'ing cool would that be? I'd definitely play through BG2 one more time to experience that.

BG2 Fixpack, a few forums down. Not many quests though.

 

I really hope that the takeaway from visitors is not that all modders behave like fourth graders. Some certainly do, but the majority work together well and contribute regularly to other mods. Take a look at any major modding effort (BG1 NPC, Quest Pack, Tutu, and BGT for example) and you'll see a broad cross-section of authors from many sites.

[Guest Mr. X]

I suppose I should register, if for no other reason than to be able to edit posts so that I can correct spelling errors, such as getting SimDing0's name right.

[jastey]

"SinDing0" is great, though.

[berelinde]

Let me apologize for starting this thread. As I've said before, I didn't mean to start any hostilities.

You're not responsible for the misbehavior of others.

 

Just imagine if all these groups GB, PP, SHS, BWL (any others I've left out) worked together to make a mega-mod. How f'ing cool would that be? I'd definitely play through BG2 one more time to experience that.

BG2 Fixpack, a few forums down. Not many quests though.

 

I really hope that the takeaway from visitors is not that all modders behave like fourth graders. Some certainly do, but the majority work together well and contribute regularly to other mods. Take a look at any major modding effort (BG1 NPC, Quest Pack, Tutu, and BGT for example) and you'll see a broad cross-section of authors from many sites.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

A fair number of us do participate in more than one forum. I'm hosted here, and G3 is my first love, in many ways, because I enjoy the generally laid-back, helpful, outspoken, and encouraging "atmosphere" of the site. But I'm also very active at SHS, and enjoy that site for many of the same reasons. I've worked on projects with folks who predominantly hang out at PPG or CoM, and wouldn't hesitate to do so again. I have also helped out on a few BWL projects, and don't plan on stopping now. In particular, I am very interested in Rabain's Callum NPC.

 

My point is that even though we all don't agree on every little issue, we do work together, when need or inclination drives us.

[Gabrielle]

Smiles everyone, smiles!

[Baronius]

I would sincerely like to draw attention to a very interesting phenomenon. Those who've finished with this topic, should just ignore this post: I don't want to burden those who aren't interested. (This post contains no modding tutorial or any such technical help.)

 

It's about the attitude shown by people who feel their suggestions weren't agreed, implemented, or discussed well enough.

 

Some modders have very firm standards and notions about what "proper compatibility" is, and what the "correct guidelines" are, and so on. When they feel these aren't followed by someone, they stand up and tell their suggestions. Often, in the form of constructive criticism. In most cases, they want to help to improve the mod by this. Which is very nice.

 

When they see that their suggestions aren't agreed, they repeat them again and again -- possibly from a different viewpoint, with more arguments etc. After some time, some authors get tired of repeating the same answers, so they don't care any more or simply stop the particular discussion.

 

My point has nothing to do with deciding if anyone makes a mistake there; whether the author unfairly or too early ends the discussion, whether the person who suggests goes too far, talks too much etc. Instead, let's see what happens when it has ended, without the particular suggestion being agreed to be implemented/considered in the mod.

 

The person who suggested it often feels some sort of failure. It's a natural human feeling, no problem. However, in certain cases, he just can't live with the fact that the suggestion or guideline he finds so fundamental and important, is simply still isn't followed by the particular author.

 

In case of less intelligent people, this may lead to a more arrogant attitude -- possibly a campaign -- against the mod ("To All Players: Please Don't Install It") or to spreading certain lies ("It was built to deliberately break other mods").

 

When even the aforementioned attempt is unsuccessful, it urges them to a "subtituting" activity. Apparently, it's for "convincing" others, but actually only satisfying themselves. Such an activity usually includes one or more of the following:

1. Public, loud statements that the thing he suggested is entirely obvious for everyone, except the mod author who didn't implement it. "Everyone uses it, except the mod's author".

2. Public, loud statements which are supposed to prove that the consequences of the author's bad decision ( = not accepting his suggestion or a general guideline he represents) are bad, unwanted, unpleasant. These statements are usually entirely subjective (yet the person tries to make the impression that they are objective); i.e. there is no way to verify these statements.

3. Trying to find a different reason for a mod's popularity than the fact it really has players who like it.

4. Public attempts to ridicule the author's "big mistake" (= not accepting his suggsetion or a general guidelines he represents). To make *fun* of it, because he can't swallow that he had failed in the *serious* ground. (Of course, no one actually cares about his "failure", but he feels it as a failure, and just can't go on.)

5. All of the above points often take place in long (and sometimes flaming) forum threads. They need the attention, the "support" from others. Without the support of others, the whole thing would make no sense. The loud statements need an audience.

 

Let's examine the above points, respectively:

1. If the point is obvious to everyone except the author, why does it have to be stated so loudly? Everyone agrees (so why to repeat something they now), and the author already disagreed it permanently (so why to keep trying)? It's all for compensating the "failure" he feels, no doubt. To make the impression that he succeeded after all. For others, and for himself too (fond delusion).

 

2. Statements that cannot be verified. Let's see a few. (Wording may be different, point is exactly the same. Consider them as "template" statements we can hear quite often.)

"If IA wants to revolutionize BG2 gaming, it must broaden its fan base". How can he know the size of the current fan base? None of us actually know the exact number of players of a mod. Furthermore, how does he know IA hasn't revolutionized it yet? And it also depends how we define "revolutionize". There are people who think IA has already brought a revolution to BG2 playing. Others don't think so. So statements such as "if it wants to revolutionize BG2 gaming" are unverifyable. Similarly, "broadening the fan base" too. There may be a number about the size of IA's fan base in his mind, but the reality might be totally different.

"Too late to fix IA". To *fix* IA? Is it broken? Cannot be verified at all.

"It wasn't thought out well enough from the beginning." "It wasn't designed well enough, see the thread about tactical mods...". Well enough? Absolutely unverifyable. Players don't care how it was designed, how elegant its components, TP2, files etc. are. They care about what they experience in the game. So statements such as "it wasn't designed well enough" are simply fond delusion. Not a fact that exists, but rather something he would like to exist. The reference to another source also proves the phenomenon: trying to justify something so strongly; something which can't be justified or verified (because it's subjective, so it will remain a single opinion forever).

And there are many more. These people often "predict" or seem to "know" what other players will think (or even decide) about a new feature. They don't say "I think making Imoen to this and that will... [..] and probably others think the same way as me". Instead, they say "If it's done this way, players will... [..] and they will turn away from the mod...". Absolutely unverifyable. Again, just fond delusion. Something he would *like* (or would *suppose*) to happen (i.e. assuming all players think in the same way as he), not something which is *sure* to happen.

 

3. This is a funny point. Such attempts try to give more significance to the (disagreed) suggestion and to the whole situation by questioning the credibility of things that (more or less) justify the author or his/her mod. "It doesn't follow the standards I represent, so it cannot be that good. Certain sources reflect that it's good, but actually, those are unreliable sources!". Examples:

(a) "Astro-turfed accounts". But even those who didn't say anything like that, still said: "Interesting why it gets so much positive feedback." "Negative posts are removed => so only positive ones can be seen => everyone believes there are only positive ones".

(b) Everyone remembers that the credibility of BWL's download statistics site was questioned. Various explanations, assumptions, "proofs" that it's inaccurate and totally useless. For some interesting reason (guess what), no one had any objections to the download stats site before IA was released and made it to the top.

Undoubtedly, these are attempts again to find some alternative of the "usual explanation". Because they cannot live with the usual explanations: (a) The mod gets so many compliments because there are players who love it. (b) The mod is one of the most downloaded mods, one of the most popular mods.

 

4. This is an interesting point again. ManAtWork site, TheBigg's IA remake mod at PPG, and maybe other things. (Well, ManAtWork site was also made because SimDing0 needs a constant audience and publicity, but the main reason is as follows.) When one can't realize it, achieve it in the reality, he will (perhaps unintentionally) do it in an alternative form, such as the aforementioned website. One could say: "No, it's just a usual attempt to make fun, purely." "Just simple parody." Well, for some reason, no one really tries to make fun with my Grey Clan mod, and the other few hundreds of released mods. The IA remake mod released at PPG does something very similar as the ManAtWork site.

 

 

Those who're involved: please, don't get me wrong: I have no objections against this sort of things. These are natural reactions of humans, automatic mechanisms to treat the feeling of "failure". (Unlike rude attacks and lies, which I do object.) I just wanted to offer an explanation (which I believe to be correct) to those who were interested why IA and not another mod gets so many many many external reactions. Well, I believe I found one of the major reasons.

 

All this seems to be proved by further things, such as the case when I asked someone "what he tried to achieve with his efforts" in this thread. Of course, an ambigious answer was given. A totally ambigious one, basically no real answer was given. Because either the person didn't want to tell it, or simply he even didn't know. Yes, the urge to compensate the "failure", to get "public support", may be so natural that even the recipient doesn't notice why he is acting like that.

 

So how can a person who acts like described above be identified? How can he or she be distinguished from those who just express their opinion? Well, those who express their opinion usually do it once, or a few times, so not excessively. On the other hand, those who are trying to get support to compensate their "failure" feeling, post the same thing excessively, possibly in different form, but with the same point. Furthermore, those who express their opinion usually do this calmly, thoughtfully. On the other hand, those who just want support for the fond delusion, usually post emotionally intensive -- occasionnaly very arrogant -- messages. Additionally, the statements are often made anonymously, or from different accounts etc.

 

My advice to those who feel the above description applied on them: relax. Fond delusion won't help you. Feel free to practise it, if you want, but don't expect reality to be changed. If a mod's certain part doesn't meet your expectations and the author clearly said he doesn't plan to change it, no matter what you do, it won't be changed. However, feel free to compensate your feeling of failure by proving to the world that the mod needs to be fixed immediately, or the mod will be forgetten forever! If you get the audience (well, some trolls can always be found), feel free to satisfy your need for support.

 

(Gabrielle: feel free to prepare the "THANKS FOR THE INFO" banner again. I won't get hurt if you decide not to, though. So don't worry. )

[SimDing0]

You didn't find ManAtWork funny then?

[CamDawg]

Guys and gals, please heed the wisdom of Baronius's words,. Take a moment to feel pity for those misguided souls who have fostered an irrational dislike of a mod (and/or modder) and dog it from site to site in order to assuage their own egos. Be gentle and supportive and don't name them by name, for as Baronius sagely notes, many of them don't realize what they're doing.