SR v4 (detailed list of changes - ongoing update)

[Dakk]

really wish there were a mod that only lightly revised spells in a comprehensive way, while keeping true to the vanilla experience. I certainly hope this mod could fill that role.

 

 

I'd just like to point out that SR isn't that drastic in it's approach. Even so, the "problem" is that the more you look under the hood of the vanilla spell system; you realize how horribly broken it is. That most players never really notice this is not an excuse to not fix it

[subtledoctor]

don't worry. Magic missile is still great, so is ADHW.

Incidentally, I've mentioned before how terrible ADHW is - it uses weird damage, it doesn't wilt, it's a purple/brown energy thing, it is blocked by ProEnergy, it's party friendly... all of that is just straight-up *wrong.*

 

But I've been told the spell can't be Revised (even though that's what this mod does) because SCS.

 

And fine. I hate that, but I accept it. So here's an alternative suggestion: just change the spell's name. SR changes spell names a bunch, sometimes for no reason other than that Demi thinks it's logical. And in every instance I can think of, I agree 100% with Demi's judgment.

 

So let's apply the same logic here: ADHW, the PnP spell, has *zero* resemblance to the BG2 spell, except that they both happen to use d8 dice for damage. That's literally the only similarity. So let's give this spell a name that correctly describes what it actually does: selectively damage enemies with violent magical energy. Energy Surge. Magic Miasma. Something. Anything other than Wilting.

 

And for Pete's sake make it an invocation or conjugrtion spell. A necromancer killing something by a surge or energy is absurd. Necromancy is about enervation, drain, chill... the absence of energy, not an abundance of it.

Edited October 26, 2014 by subtledoctor

[n-ghost]

Well, you can't use HW against fire\earth\air elementals and undead, afaik. Or Demi intended to implement that a year ago or so, anyway >,>

 

The only feature that Horrid Wilting has in PnP is using d8 to damage plants and water elementals, and somehow those were kinda ignoring all that Bhaalspawn stuff back in the days.

[kreso]

 

don't worry. Magic missile is still great, so is ADHW.

Incidentally, I've mentioned before how terrible ADHW is - it uses weird damage, it doesn't wilt, it's a purple/brown energy thing, it is blocked by ProEnergy, it's party friendly... all of that is just straight-up *wrong.*

 

It's effect on combat it's great. The spell in BG2 carries zero resemblence to it's PnP counterpart, ofc.

 

 

But I've been told the spell can't be Revised (even though that's what this mod does) because SCS.

It can be revised because SCS - due to SCS checking for SR existance in game, a seperate trigger check can be added.

There are limits, naturally. It should remain AoE party-friendly, and mages need some easy way to protect themselves from dying to it instantly. Spell name is irrelevant, for as long as it has the same ids entry.

The main problem why this probably won't be done here is twofold imo:

 

1) as you say, ADHW being party friendly is absurd. Even it's description says "it drains....all living creatures". Thinking about it, Sarevok in ToB should be immune to it.

Then again, there are worse spells which are friendly - Dragon's Breath "an enormous fireball, which won't hurt you, but 3rd level fireball will!). Comet? Lol.

2) ADHW is a "core" part of the game. While I do agree that spell animation is awful for it's described effect (this I would change), I don't think SR would go so far to remove it from game and replace with something similar.

Maybe....Mass Harm?

[hemike]

 

 

It's not that drastic.

 

That is missing the point. I believe you that SR can be considered "not that drastic", especially when compared to some ridiculous mods out there which add hundreds of haphazard spells.

 

However, the point is not whether the changes themselves are good. It is that many people still want to experience a faithful representation of the vanilla game. Sure, there are problems with the game, as any. But that is part of the original experience, which many still like to retain. That is not to take anything away from those who want to have a modded spellbook with entirely new interesting and balanced spells - that is a perfectly valid and enjoyable way to play. I am not against that mode, in fact many including myself would play like that some of the time, on some playthroughs. But it is a different way to play than the original experience, which there is value in retaining.

 

So drastic or not is beside the point. The point is that the addition, removal, or radical reworking of the spells original spells leads to a different experience. A spellbook with new or removed spells just isn't really the same as the original game anymore.

 

Now, you could say that I should simply play without this mod then. That is perfectly fine. However, I truly appreciate the effort that has gone into revising the spells in the core spellbook. I think the balancing and tweaking of core spells done in this mod in a comprehensive way is a very valuable contribution to the modding community, one that I don't see any other mod undertaking. It would be just such a pity though if people couldn't take that aspect of the mod, without having to alter the vanilla experience too much.

 

If it's not that hard to do, separating some of these changes into two components which could satisfy both ways of playing would really make this mod more versatile and appealing, and filling an important niche in the modding community. That's all I'm suggesting really.

Edited October 26, 2014 by hemike

[kreso]

If it's not that hard to do, separating some of these changes into two components which could satisfy both ways of playing would really make this mod more versatile and appealing, and filling an important niche in the modding community. That's all I'm suggesting really.

 

This I guess could be done...do keep in mind - a lot of components of SR are very much connected. While IR isn't as much interdependant, SR definitely is. Even more so with the usage of secondary types.

Anyways, probably either Demi, Mike or Ardanis will have more to say about this.

[lynx]

But please don't let this delay the release.

[hemike]

This I guess could be done...do keep in mind - a lot of components of SR are very much connected. While IR isn't as much interdependant, SR definitely is. Even more so with the usage of secondary types.

Anyways, probably either Demi, Mike or Ardanis will have more to say about this.

 

 

Yes absolutely I understand. I am merely posing this as a suggestion, and qualifying that I don't know if it is reasonbly easy to do. I leave it up the mod authors to figure out if it is worth their while.

 

 

But please don't let this delay the release.

 

Yes, agreed, I am not advocating drawing out the release just for this, and denying people the fun of a new version. But if it is reasonable in time constraints, then it is maybe worth considering.

[Sergio]

 

 

 

It's not that drastic.

 

However, the point is not whether the changes themselves are good. It is that many people still want to experience a faithful representation of the vanilla game. Sure, there are problems with the game, as any. But that is part of the original experience, which many still like to retain.

Sorry, but if you think like that, why would you wish to use spell revisions ? The concept itself of "vanilla" is so huge and can be so subjective, that trying to apply an etiquette like "faithful representation of the vanilla game" seems, at least in my point of view, pointless.

 

Don't you like the approach on the new Spell revision mod? Just use the previous version. Or don't use it.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Sergio

[Ardanis]

If it's not that hard to do, separating some of these changes into two components which could satisfy both ways of playing would really make this mod more versatile and appealing, and filling an important niche in the modding community. That's all I'm suggesting really.

 

*Arda appears to the sun. I mean, moon. I mean, clouds in the night. Ugh...*

 

We are (I am?) going to try and keep the main component in a table format, so if you don't like any particular change, it can be unchecked. In theory, at least. I'm less sure it will be as flawless in practice because some spells are essentially changed in groups of 2-3, like the merged Conjure Elemental ones. Failing that, we can still use ini settings to allow some freedom without splitting the mod into dozens of components.

 

*Arda crawls back into his basement*

[Demivrgvs]

I'll try to catch up with all the stuff discussed here in the last week...

 

Removed/replaced spells & new spells

@hemike, despite V4 taking a more daring approach on this matter, it's still hugely less drastic than you seem to believe. If I'm not wrong you are actually judging the mod before trying it out, give it a chance and then let me know. I doubt you will feel the loss of any spell, and I'm almost sure that, despite the massive amount of changes they bring, both IR and SR are among the best mods when it comes to blend with vanilla game without giving that strange "mod-added" feeling.

 

I'm always extremely reluctant when it comes to "remove" a spell, and when I do it's because I have really good reasons (e.g. the original spell is utterly useless, overlap with another spell, can be replaced by a much better one, etc.). Note that whenever I "remove" a spell, that spell is actually replaced by another one, which has to pass a lot of checks before being approved (e.g. must be PnP based, fit the removed spell role almost flawlessly, belong to a magic school that really need a new spell, etc.).

 

For new spells it's the same thing: very few make it, and if they do it's because they blend into the game really well, they fill a much needed role (e.g. improving underrepresented schools) or add something unique (e.g. Ball Lightning, Striking Wave, etc.).

 

Making new spells optional is slightly easier than making multiple install options for the main component, but the whole system is heavily interconnected now, and removing even a few spells might led to some flaws.

 

Banishment

@janoha, the problem Death Spell's "slay 8HD creatures with no save" had is that such an effect is either really OP (e.g. high level BG1 mage vs. party members) or completely useless (within BG2). BG makes that even more unreliable because creatures HD stat quite often do not reflect their expected power lvl, not counting how many times that stat simply have a wrong value.

 

Going back to the above discussion, Banishment replaced Death Spell because the latter never had anti-summon properties in PnP, and concept wise it made no sense for it to have them, while such effect is indeed what Banishment does in PnP, and what the AI uses this spell for.

 

Horrid Wilting

@subtledoctor, I do not like that this spell uses magic dmg but that has to stay (AI checks for it), as well as the current name I fear. It's one of the most famous BG spells and you can see on this very topic that some players really dislike spell renaming. Btw, there's really no PnP spell that could take its place, the only really daring option imo could be to "merge" HW into Symbol of Death.

 

On a side note, Necromancy spells dealing magic dmg do makes sense as it represents Negative Energy dmg (e.g. Cause Wound spells, Skull Trap, Unholy Blight, etc.), what the most recent D&D editions call Necrotic dmg.

 

@n-ghost, yes SR's Horrid Wilting do not affect elementals, undead and illusionary creatures. I think it worked like that since V3, but it surely does now.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Demivrgvs

[DavidW]

As a point of interest I avoid using Death Spell against PCs in SCS precisely because it feels so unfair.

[subtledoctor]

On a side note, Necromancy spells dealing magic dmg do makes sense as it represents Negative Energy dmg (e.g. Cause Wound spells, Skull Trap, Unholy Blight, etc.), what the most recent D&D editions call Necrotic dmg.

We we can agree to disagree about that one: because Skull Trap and ADHW are not actually meant to cause energy damage, that was a Bioware decision; and Unholy Blight (imo) does energy damage via divine energy (albeit evil divine energy), not a necromantic process. The only one left is Cause Wounds, but I think that is simply a sapping of life force/health, not some kind of magic energy overload damage.

 

Negative Energy is the lack of energy; a drain, an enervating force. Necromancy spells should harm in that fashion: level draining, health draining, aging, wilting (PnP wilting), etc. Invication spells should do damage via positive energy, a.k.a. "magic energy." And, Conjuration and Transmutation spells should do damage via elemental effects.

 

But the 2e specialty schools are a hodgepodge of oddness that we have to work with, and while I disagree with your take on it, I also understand your logic. (I will at least say, if that is your position on necromantic damage, at least "Protection from Energy" should be renamed "Protection from Negative Energy" and should not protect against Magic Missile.)

[hemike]

Thanks for the response Demi. I don't want you to think I am making a criticism of any of your changes; I have seen enough of the changes here and in IR to trust your changes are reasonable, creative, and are an improvement. Rather, I was simply pointing out that there is a different approach to a modding that some people like at least some of the time, which is to play an only lightly tweaked version with all the original components "intact". The suggestion was simply to make SR applicable to both types of approaches.

 

Of course, as you and Arda say, it is tightly coupled and not so easy to do. Therefore, forget about the suggestion and keep on doing what you are doing!

[Jarno Mikkola]

But the 2e specialty schools are a hodgepodge of oddness that we have to work with, and while I disagree with your take on it, I also understand your logic. (I will at least say, if that is your position on necromantic damage, at least "Protection from Energy" should be renamed "Protection from Negative Energy" and should not protect against Magic Missile.)

And what type of damage would the magic missile then use ?

There's only so many damage types and so the game needs to respect those boundaries, yes, we could make the necromantic spells use the magical cold -damage, if we add the death animation for it, but ... that's going to be sticky subject as most other mods do not have that determination set in them that the generally accepted fact is that this type of damage is represented by that division of magic.